Both salt and sugar lead to water retention.

What soda? Sodium makes you retain water, as does carbohydrates.

Gonna go get another Diet Dr. Pepper.

Also fasting today, so no weight gain for me!

Willpower, how does it work?

Since I'm not about to waste my time getting into how brain and body chemistry can impact personal choices with someone who doesn't give a damn about how brain and body chemistry can impact personal choices, we seem to be at an impasse. Suffice it to say that a blanket "choices" argument is really ****ing stupid.

Since when is using a control "forcing parameters"? Bro, do you even science?

In studies about diets, rats are a poor analog for humans. De novo lipogenesis is a much more efficient mechanism in rats than it is in humans.

Dude, I heard if you drink diet soda that it puts you in a trance and makes you go to the freezer for bagel bites and jalapeno poppers! It turns your brain off dude! Be careful.

How so? You quoted a study without a properly run control group. You don't even get the point of controlling all parameters to determine causation. Almost all horseshit studies can show correlation, which is not causation.

No, it's more than the soda weight, I swear. And it's more than normal salt/sugar stuff. I'm a sample size of one, but soda has some multiplicative impact on weight for me.

I would ****ing love to eat a whole box of triscuits right now but....I am a man and not a weak little spineless pussy who caves to prehistoric desires.

It's not stupid. Certainly, there is a component of ANY food consumption that determines the body's hormonal response, and that hormonal response can impact the foods we eat. But it still comes down to CHOICE. Just because you are craving something doesn't mean that you HAVE to eat it. It's certainly more difficult to ignore when you are fighting a huge ghrelin spike, but it's not impossible.

You get that, when an issue is something like "impact on behavior" and you eliminate any possible impact on behavior, you've rigged the question, right?

In other words, deliberately limiting the caloric intake when increased caloric consumption is a potential effect makes the study useless. It's not a control at that point. It's an artificial brake on the study.

Diet soda/energy drinks are amazing.

Just because it's more than the soda's weight doesn't mean anything. It is causing you to retain water from other things you ingest.

I'd rather drink a lot of diet soda than a lot of milk. That shit will make you plump up fast.

Of course it is.

The issue is not the BEHAVIOR. The issue is the physiological response to the artificial sweetener.

Behavior is not simply governed by every single impulse our body gives us. Just because I'm horny doesn't mean I'm going to try to **** anyone I see. Similarly, just because I'm hungry, I'm not going to just eat everything I see. Both are signals I get from my body, but the outcome is based upon choices I make.

Brilliant insight, professor.

Boom. I make food choices all the time that I don't want to. What is causing me to crave pizza for dinner, I have no ****ing clue, but I am opting for the chicken breast with veggies tonight. Me craving pizza is there whether I have a diet soda or not.

It was certainly more enlightening than the post it was responding to.

No, the issue is whether or not the use of artificial sweeteners can have a direct, or indirect, effect of causing weight gain.

**** it. I was good all week, so I'm having the pizza LMAO Nice being able to splurge now and still being trim.

Honestly I eat like shit...fasting FTW. :LOL:

(although I stay away from fast food and beer/alcohol so that helps)

Oh believe me, I ate dirty Chinese food last night. I usually try to do cheat meals Friday because my squat day is Sunday and if I eat dirty the night before I.....well you get the point. :D

We're having a fairly reasonable discussion here. No reason to go down that path.


First, that wording is misleading. Sweeteners with no calories cannot directly cause weight gain. Excess calories are what cause weight gain. Second, an indirect cause, by its very nature, eliminates the root variable as being a sole source. So, you can't just say "diet soda indirectly causes weight gain," because you are ignoring the intervening factor. And since we know that you cannot gain weight without the presence of excess calories, it is tackling THAT issue that should be the focus.

Take your own advice:

It's not misleading at all. It's your argument that's misleading. What you are doing is trying to base your argument on a very narrow interpretation of "cause". I get what you're doing. I simply reject the maneuver. If you narrow the focus down to the moments after ingestion, you can make an irrefutable argument that drinking water causes weight gain, for crying out loud.

Did Matt Cassel tell you that drinking diet soda was bad, or something?

I'll drink an occasional regular soda, but mainly only drink water and milk, so I can't comment.

The only bullshit maneuver going on in this thread is you trying to demonize something without any proof and then calling everyone else stupid.

Is this a joke?

Are you attempting to lose weight in the least healthy way possible?

It works for me. I hate counting calories and all that bullshit.

Okay... artificial sweeteners mess with your liver. If you want to see how that 'indirectly' causes weight gain, you should research it. Your liver views them as a toxin. When your liver is preoccupied filtering out poison it has a negative impact on your liver's ability to regulate your metabolism.

Plus, we can talk about the cancer links to artificial sweeteners too.

No though... it's not the calories that cause the weight gain. It's the actual damage it does to the body. You can decide which is better.

My body, via fasting and diet sodas. I also ate a substantial amount of sugar. Clearly, I'm doing it wrong:

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...9/posttan2.jpg

What kind of cookies do you eat?

I have eaten nothing but sugar for three months, and now I have the body of a god.

Yeah, let's talk about that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8168806

"There were no significant differences in the conventional or spectral EEG analyses, urinary organic acid concentrations, and adverse experiences when aspartame was compared with placebo. This study reaffirms the safety of aspartame in PKUH and refutes the speculation that aspartame affects cognitive performance, EEGs, and urinary organic acids."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17828671

"The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11754527

"Evaluation of the anecdotal reports of adverse health effects, the first such system for a food additive, revealed that the reported effects were generally mild and also common in the general population and that there was no consistent or unique pattern of symptoms that could be causally linked to consumption of aspartame. Finally, the results of the extensive scientific research done to evaluate these allegations did not show a causal relationship between aspartame and adverse effects. Thus, the weight of scientific evidence confirms that, even in amounts many times what people typically consume, aspartame is safe for its intended uses as a sweetener and flavor enhancer."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15510910

"Based on detailed analysis of published studies on safety of aspartame, it should not be restricted, but used in recommended amounts."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12180494

"The safety testing of aspartame has gone well beyond that required to evaluate the safety of a food additive. When all the research on aspartame, including evaluations in both the premarketing and postmarketing periods, is examined as a whole, it is clear that aspartame is safe, and there are no unresolved questions regarding its safety under conditions of intended use."

Oreos. ****ING DOUBLE STUF.

It's like looking into the eyes of God.

I like the chocolate filled versions.

Really want to try the chocolate COVERED ones.

Kneel before your god:

http://theshakybakerblog.files.wordp...6/piecaken.jpg

Read the thread. I never tried to demonize anything. I merely suggested that GoChiefs use Google after he made his comment about diet soda, because the issue is not settled. Also, what I called stupid was the argument, not the person. You've got your panties in a twist over something that never happened.

You fat ****! Time for you to start getting serious about your diet like most people in this thread.

LMAO

I can't even stay on topic after looking at this pic, though I will own that I can find no link between cancer and aspartame in human studies.

Seriously though... do you have a shirt that says "come at me bro'? Fake tan... shaved chest... shirtless picture with pants pulled down below the pelvic line? LMAO.

Women desire him greatly.

U mad?

Yea man, it sucks having a physique to be proud of....really sucks.

It's only an issue in the minds of people that want it to be an issue.

My chest isn't shaved. I'm naturally hairless up there, which is weird because my legs look like they belong to Robin Williams. If I could grow a 70s porn chest-rug, I TOTALLY would. I don't normally walk around with my shorts pulled down that low; that was just to illuminate the extent of my lean-ness.

Here's what I looked like the same day without the tan:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...99/pretan1.jpg

It's a pretty big difference.

This one is like 2 seconds after the tan application:http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...9/posttan6.jpg

My wife calls that my "Superhero look."

OK NOW it's gay in here.

I shave my chest, BTW.

And my inner thighs.

Feels good man.

It was gay a LONG time ago. I just turned the dial up to 11.

Man I don't know. Obviously you have a rockin' bod. I just don't think I'd want to look like that. My friend Sean went to school for Kiniesealalgofalgjalogy. So he is a big workout guy...and he's built. But he's not all abby. I don't like the all abby look.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

Way too much info being shared in here...

No, it's an issue in the minds of those who are seeking an answer to the question, because the studies haven't settled the question.

You can post all the gay porn tryout pictures you want, but that's not going to magically create a scientific certainty where there's not one.

Look, you can throw all the ad hominems at me that you want, but it won't change the fact that there's just no proof that diet sodas cause weight gain.

I'm open to new research changing my mind, but there is no RCT that shows diet sodas to CAUSE weight gain. It doesn't matter how many diet sodas you drink, if you're at or under maintenance calories, you won't gain weight. That's what it boils down to, and it's really at the heart of what this thread is supposed to be about -- what makes us fat? You can say whatever you want, but in all the studies, the ONE THING that ALWAYS causes weight gain is an excess of calories consumed compared to calories burned. No matter what your metabolic rate is or how it got altered, either up or down, intake must ALWAYS follow accordingly. Weight simply doesn't come out of nowhere. Diet sodas do not cause weight gain any more than being poor causes someone to rob a bank.

But hey, there are also no studies that show that a goose shitting in my backyard doesn't cause weight gain. SO BEWARE OF DECK-SHITTING GEESE, LEST YE BECOME OBESE . . . BECAUSE . . . SCIENCE!

Also, I polished off a 2 liter bottle of diet drink in honor of this shit-fest of a thread. I suspect I'll wake up tomorrow 17 pounds heavier, with a tumor in my liver. DAMN YOU, ASPARTAME!
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...81CD8FE8E2.jpg

LMAO

This thread went a bit strange.

Don't they always?

This is true.

Your ink... what is it a picture of? (I can't really tell in the pics)

Edit: If you don't mind me asking.

Again, you're making arguments countering claims that weren't made, and you're obviously not open to new research since some new research has shown weight gain potentially attributable to artificial sweeteneres and you dismissed that out of hand, so you can shove your finger up your ass.

No, you posted an article that doesn't contain "new research." The research in your article is from 2008, and is severely flawed. I'll later post two research reviews from 2012, and an earlier, more controlled study that show this "new research" to be a crock.

I dismissed nothing out of hand. I explained exactly why I dismissed your two links. Rats aren't humans, and there are significant differences in carbohydrate metabolism that make them a poor substitute for human studies. The conclusion of the "new research" was basically "Well, this study doesn't give us any kind of conclusion, because it could go in any number of directions." That is basically the scientific equivalent of

Scientist 1: "Hey, I might have seen Sasquatch . . . but it also could have been a butterfly."

Scientist 2: "Well, we mostly definitely didn't see a Sasquatch, and we also saw a ton of other evidence that Sasquatch doesn't even exist."

Scientist 1: "Well . . . there MIGHT be a Sasquatch."

Scientist 2: "There's no Sasquatch."

But, for a better understanding of why the research in your linked article is fatally flawed, I point to the response letter written to the publisher of said research.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....2008.623/full

You can read it for yourself, but I'll highlight the really important bits.

Those studies can be found here:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...564.x/abstract

and here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17828671

You haven't shown me any actual evidence diet soda makes you fat. I can, and have, pointed you to an actual meta-study showing the complete opposite, but here's another one, anyway. It's a bit older, but the point still stands.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/51/6/963

"To examine whether artificial sweeteners aid in the control of long-term food intake and body weight, we gave free-living, normal-weight subjects 1150 g soda sweetened with aspartame (APM) or high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) per day. Relative to when no soda was given, drinking APM-sweetened soda for 3 wk significantly reduced calorie intake of both females (n = 9) and males (n = 21) and decreased the body weight of males but not of females.
*my note: Although female weight reduction was not statistically significant, it was still a loss of weight; definitely not a weight gain*
However, drinking HFCS-sweetened soda for 3 wk significantly increased the calorie intake and body weight of both sexes. Ingesting either type of soda reduced intake of sugar from the diet without affecting intake of other nutrients. Drinking large volumes of APM-sweetened soda, in contrast to drinking HFCS-sweetened soda, reduces sugar intake and thus may facilitate the control of calorie intake and body weight."

The major limitation of this study is that total caloric intake wasn't limited by the study's design (although, it was recorded and logged appropriately). But hey, that's kinda what you were asking for when you said this:

So, what we are left with is actual scientific evidence that artificial sweeteners did not cause weight gain (along with a hefty amount of research reviews saying that there's no evidence that artificial sweeteners contribute to weight gain http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23037901 and http://jn.nutrition.org/content/142/6/1163s.abstract ), and then some SEVERELY FLAWED speculation that they *could.* Guess which one I'm going to base my opinion on.

You're free to do the same.

So basically all your chest hair just went down to your legs instead? My brother has the same affliction. Looks like a centaur.

Also, why are you so salty? You've done nothing but attack me, and I'm not sure why.

http://i.imgur.com/Bo4FaWo.jpg

Yup. My arms are almost the same way. I have a little bit of hair on my forearms, but none on my upper arms. I look funny. Maybe that's why I try to have abs so much . . .

Warning - HAIRY GAY CONTENT AHEAD:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...85C06E7A33.jpg

Falcon holding a Spartan shield bearing the date of the death of my best friend.

TRANSFORMERS

Ummm. Pass.

I don't really feel there's anything with a little sugar now and then. My response to stuff like this is always the same - moderation is important with anything.

I've been trying to cut back on my sugar, caffeine, and fast food. I have consumed a lot of soda and energy drinks in my days. I'm really trying to cut back. I'll never give up caffeine or sugar 100%, but if I limit myself and counter it by eating healthier foods, drinking more water, and exercising, I'll be ok.

I push shards of rock candy right through the skin of my neck. I figure it gets into the bloodstream much more quickly.

No. I won't do it. I'm only about ten pounds over my ideal weight, and Summer is coming so I'll drop that within a month.

Right. It's all the government's fault you eat processed shit. Take some responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming the government.

Eat whole grains, fruits and veggies instead of processed shit. And exercise. A lot. I've lost 40 lbs. doing just that.

Fasting and diet soda works great too.

Fasting is a poor way to lose weight. It will eventually happen (at the expense of your health) but in the short term your body will stop burning fat and start storing it, which defeats the purpose. We evolved to stop burning fat during periods when there is little food in order to preserve it for survival. That works great for hunter/gatherers that don't always eat three meals a day, but doesn't work well for losing weight.