I'll get flamed for this, but, as a KU fan, I truly think that this has become quite excessive.

If we get upset in the first/second round next year, we're due to have a ton of stihs lofted in our direction.

You'd be better off arguing for Priest's and Terrell's worthiness. Add Billy Simms to that list.

Slippery slope arguments are shit. Of course there are points where short spots of brilliance are too short, but Sayers isn't that point. He had 4 1/2 seasons of play, and still made 4 Pro Bowls and 5 [FIVE!!] First Team All Pros. Led the league in total yards 3 times. 22 TDs in his rookie season, including 6 [SIX!!] in one game. Highlights rivaled only by Barry Sanders. All on a shit team where he was the ONLY thing the opposition had to defense.

Closest analog I can think of, what if Tom Brady ended his undefeated season with a SB win, then Pollard's knee job ended things for good? Too short of a career?

You remember what happened to Denzel in that movie.. right?

He has seen Training Day, so he might be 16.

Check my join date, son! You think I was posting when I was 7? I ain't 15! My shit's just too next-level for you to comprehend!! You might as well retire from the Internet cuz you can't keep up with this!!!

Nah I turned it off before the end because it was getting too scary :(

Someone ODed on episodes of Eastbound and Down.

I haven't actually seen the new season yet, but I hear it's great.

love to see where you're getting your stats... here's my source:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SayeGa00.htm

I have only two times leading the league in yards twice, one of which he ALSO led in total yards--that doesn't equate to two times in one season to me, though. TD numbers are also a bit off, but that doesn't include pr/kr touchdowns for some reason, and I know he had more than a few, so I'll give you that one.

I'm not debating that he was an amazing player--he absolutely was. I just don't think he had enough longevity to be in the hall-of-fame... not that I'm a big fan of compilers, though. it's also highly subjective, obviously. in comparison, let's make a hypothetical... let's take the first 67 games of walter payton's career. his stats are thus (approximates), assuming he'd have retired after his fifth season:

let's compare this to gale sayers...more yards, less per attempt, WAY more yards per game, more receptions, more receiving yards, less yards per reception, more total touchdowns by 15 (not counting return touchdowns, which may skew toward sayers, though walter payton DID return a few kicks early in his career, IIRC, and he DID have a touchdown or two--he was quite explosive), and he dominates sayers in yards from scrimmage. oh yeah, he also led the league in 'yards' from scrimmage twice, one of those in rushing yards as well--essentially, the same as sayers (but reversed).

so, is walter payton a hall-of-famer after five seasons? that's completely subjective. if you're a jackson state alum or a bears fan, you may say so. I'm neither, but I'd like to think that I can be objective... I wouldn't give him my vote. not because he wasn't great, he was amazing. he also was on some shitty teams. he also did it all--but the longevity just was.not.there. after nine seasons, add 4700 yards... that gives him nine full seasons (see also, jim brown) and 11,600 yards. THAT is a hall-of-famer to me. you have to look at the body of work, and it just isn't quite there for either payton OR sayers after 67-68 games. but, that's the great thing about these conversations--it's my opinion, nothing more or nothing less.

You steppin' to?????

Considering Sayers without considering the return game is a little like considering Marshall Faulk without considering receiving numbers.

hmmmm.... that would've given him the following (these are estimations, not precise--I don't have the patience for a full analysis like I just did for walter payton)

110 games started
around 62.5% completion percentage
3600 attempts
25,700ish yards
200 touchdowns
86 interceptions
yards per attempt: 7.5 or so
yards per game: 240 or so
4/4 in super bowls, ton of playoff wins

all of this in seven full seasons as starting QB... yeah, those numbers are no doubt. but, you have to remember that for QBs, super bowls are the only real number that counts. his numbers are good to great (more than 2:1 TD/INT ratio, plenty of yards, lot of yards per game), but the super bowls make it a no-doubter. the REAL question would be this... what if a QB comes out and wins the super bowl his first four years in the league, about 3500 yards per year, 30 touchdowns per year, few interceptions... is HE a hall-of-famer? I'd have to think really long and hard about that one.

for what it's worth, wiki is the only source I could find on returns... they say he rarely returned punts, but credited him with two punt return touchdowns to go with 6 kick return touchdowns. let's say 2500 yards returning, kicks and punts. that would put (with walter payton's kick/punt returns) them about equal in both yards (returns and from scrimmage) and payton ahead on touchdowns and rushing yards.

my point still stands, though. do you put walter payton in the hall of fame after five seasons?

Well, he's one of the few celebs I've had an actual conversation with, and got my picture taken with [he was hosting a lobbying dinner trying to bring an NFL team to St. Louis in Jeff City in 1992]. And the 85 Bears were the first team I followed passionately [didn't get into the Chiefs until 87-88 when Dino Hackett caught my eye]. So I can't be objective.

Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, and Fran Tarkenton would like a word with you.

To be fair, the stats are from memory from NFL channel retrospectives on his career. But I'm fairly sure the ones I cited are accurate as they've stuck in my mind since I first heard them.

all of whom had the overwhelming stats that couldn't be ignored (aside from jim kelly, who had good to great numbers and led his team to four super bowls in a row)

did you have a point? are you telling me that the QBs listed wouldn't have had better resumes with a super bowl in AND their numbers? QB is a leadership position moreso than any other position, kind of like pitchers and win/loss record. it doesn't directly correlate, but it's easier for hall-of-fame voters to forgive slightly inferior numbers/seasons if a guy led his team to multiple championships. ben roethlisberger doesn't have AMAZING numbers, but he has a few super bowl wins. he's an automatic hall of famer as a result. take away his two championships, and he's borderline.

eh, they were close to the ones that I found. I have no issue with your stats, really, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

The point seems pretty obvious to me, super bowls aren't the only thing that matters, which was the statement I responded to. If Manning, Favre, et. al., never won a super bowl they'd still be hall of famers, and it wouldn't be a close call.

point taken, maybe I was being too absolute, but they're a hell of a boost. the point with ben roethlisberger stands. I'd almost guarantee he's a hall-of-famer regardless of the rest of his career, and it's all due to his two super bowl wins.

I should point out, though, that your selections are kind of outliers--they have AMAZING stats. take away 1/3 of their yards/touchdowns, and you're in a position where they'd need a super-bowl (or post-season success ala jim kelly) in order to make the hall-of-fame.

Has Jim Plunkett ever been up for the HOF? The guy won 2 rings and was SB MVP in XV if I recall. How about Tom Flores? Coached 2 SB winners and is never mentioned in the great coach debates.

Don't mean to sound like a Raiders homer but those guys have as much reason to bitch about their HOF status as anyone.

here are jim plunkett's composite stats per wiki:

TD-INT 164-198
Yards 25,882
QB Rating 67.5

despite the super-bowl wins, his numbers aren't good enough. he had a 15 year career for crying out loud, he averaged around 1700 yards per year, maybe 11 touchdowns and 13.3 interceptions. that, on some loaded raiders teams (where he won his super bowls). despite this, there are more than a few people who consider him a hall-of-fame QB. don't ask me, I'm not one of them.

Raider fans think he's worthy. He isn't.

I think what this tells us that brock is right, it's not ONLY super bowls. however, super bowls (and playoff success) can be the needed boost to get you into the HOF if you have decent to good numbers. you COULD, however, have amazing numbers (warren moon, dan marino, fran tarkenton) and make the HOF without that super bowl.

There are at least a few QBs that probably wouldn't be in the HOF without a championship on their resume. The utterly nauseating Joe Namath for example.

yep. ever seen his numbers en total? ****ing abysmal.

He's always annoyed me, because if not for that asshole, the Chiefs would have been the first AFL team to win it all in the NFL.

just because I'm that asshole, I'll one-up you. maybe if lenny dawson hadn't thrown that interception to start the second half in the first super bowl, we may have been the first AFL team to win it all against an NFL team. :p

I have a couple of Raider fan friends and they pine more for Stabler getting in the HOF than Plunkett.

Plunkett's career numbers look like shit...that's true...although I'm sure the worst numbers came from New England and San Francisco where he was a kid being thrown to the wolves with no supporting cast.

Amazing what the NY media can do for a player with marginal talent.

Jeremy Lin?

Well, I don't really follow the NBA until the playoffs...but I'll cite another Jeremy, as in Shockey when he was with the Giants.

Lived in NYC during Shockey's first couple of seasons. Giant friends would go on and on about how he was the NFL's best TE since Winslow...yada, yada, yada. I would tell them that if he were in the AFC West, he might be the third best in that division after Gonzales and Gates. They looked at me like I was insane.

The NY media slobbed his knob, so of course he was the best in the NFL in their minds.

So, congrats to Denmon on his All American selection. Well deserved.

Those numbers scream his day's version of Matt Cassel :)

ESPN slobbed his knob from his very first PRESEASON game. It was sickening.

Jeff Goodman ‏ @GoodmanCBS

Here's who has reached out to Alex Oriakhi: KY, UNC, Duke, NC St, Fla., Temple, Xavier, UCLA, Mizzou, George Mason, Va Tech, Va., Charlotte.

Jeff Goodman ‏ @GoodmanCBS

Do not be shocked if Missouri is among the leaders for Oriakhi. I know how much he loved playing with Phil Pressey back in the day.

Saw that. Very, very good news. Saw a quote from Oriakhi where he said he'd rather play with Phil Pressey than Kemba Walker (Oriakhi shot 63 percent with Kemba as his point - would likely be able to provide a very Ratliffe-like shooting percentage).

Kentucky apparently has backed off on Pollard, too.

Good news on both fronts, IMO. Mississippi State's hire as head coach could be a big factor. Pollard's mom is also retiring (she's a schoolteacher with enough years in to retire w/ full pension) and plans to move wherever he goes, so distance is probably less of a concern than before.

Best Case Scenario:
Oriakhi
Bowers
Ross
Dixon
Pressey

Would be a pretty strong starting lineup, with Pollard, Brown, Bell, Criswell, Rosburg off the bench.

Sick to think about.

Would be a great grab for the Tigers.


After being home talking to my dad (whos a big tiger guy) this last week, he is still furious about Anderson's recruiting the last year.


Otto Porter, Bradley Beal, Mclemore, and the dude from Arkansas. All from Missouri.

nick wright ‏ @getnickwright Close
People tweeting me about Alex Oriakhi and MU... It's my understanding that he can't go to MU because he can't transfer to an SEC school.

I guess they'd better get his ass signed prior to June 1 then, eh?

http://www.mrsec.com/2012/03/sec-cla...ype-transfers/

SEC Bylaw 14.1.15

“A student-athlete who, upon enrollment at the certifying institution, has less than two years of eligibility remaining, is not eligible for financial aid, practice or competition at the member institution. A member institution may request a waiver from the Conference office for a student-athlete transferring from an institution discontinuing a sport, or for a student-athlete transferring for the purpose of enrolling in an academic program not offered at the institution from which he or she is transferring.”

He wasn't a marginal talent, he had terrible injuries throughout his career... his knees where toast...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...MlS_story.html

Missouri’s Frank Haith is AP’s college basketball Coach of the Year

NEW ORLEANS — Frank Haith has capped his first season at Missouri by being selected The Associated Press’ Coach of the Year.

Haith took over the Tigers after seven years at Miami. He was presented the award Friday after receiving 21 votes from the 65-member national media panel that selects the weekly Top 25.

Missouri won 30 games and the Big 12 tournament and was ranked in the AP poll the entire season, reaching second for one week and third in the final poll. The Tigers were a No. 2 seed in the NCAA tournament but were knocked out in the first round by Norfolk State. The voting was done before the NCAA tournament.

Haith is still dealing with aftermath of an NCAA investigation into the program at Miami.

John Calipari of Kentucky and Tom Izzo of Michigan State tied for second with 10 votes each.

The only other Missouri coach to win the award was Norm Stewart in 1994.

Congrats, Frank!
Posted via Mobile Device

It's a non-issue.

1) Mizzou isn't in the SEC until July 1, and he's already stated that he will be at his new school by June 1.

2) He's got 2 years to play 1, so the "eligibility" time could be considered 2 years.

3) A waiver would be granted. There's a reason that Kentucky and Florida are on him. This rule was designed to prevent grad students transfering like Masoli at Miss St.

Frank Haith is AP COY but to B12 coaches, he was third best in his conference. That seems weird.

B12 coaches are petty bitches?

FYP

Congrats to Frank Haith and his amazing season.

Congratulations are in order for Haith, he led Missouri to an incredible season.

Best of luck in the SEC, Frank!

Call me crazy, but I think the team next year will be better than this years if Mizzou lands either Oriakhi or Pollard. They lose some three point shooting but will more than make up for it in rebounding, points in the paint, and athleticism. Losing Denmon and English will hurt, but I still feel Ratliffe's shoes won't be as hard to fill as some people think.

Still waiting if Shawn Smith signs with Mizzou or not. Last I heard he still was unless I missed something.:hmmm:

Still going to the SEC, but
 

He committed to aTm earlier this week.

I don't think Pollard has a great impact on next season. In fact, Oriakhi would probably be a bigger deal for 2012 than Pollard would.

But by 2013, Pollard and Pressey could give us another chance to have our hearts broken in the Tourny. By then you would hope that Ross is doing an admirable job replacing Denmon. Pollard would be an elite 4 and Brown is probably a solid fit at the 3. I don't think that team would have a true 5 though; not sold on Rosburg at all.

Pollard's the key to the recruiting class, IMO. He could make this class go from good to great (since Brown is included).

Pollard's a potenital 1-and-done guy. I wouldn't count on 2013 impact.

Norfolikn' way, the coaches would never have an axe to grind!

Regular season yes. Season overall, the historic loss to a terrible team at the end makes it a bad season and will provide jokes for many many years. I do wonder though if Haith will really ever recover from it.

I thought Saul was off a little when he mentioned this earlier in the thread or maybe the other MU thread, but I think MU would have been the type of team to beat UK.


They would have had trouble guarding UK but I don't think UK could guard them very well either.

It would have been fun to see.

ROFL Kim English is hilarious. He flies back from Baltimore today. Tweets that he needs a ride from STL to Como and now has 4 girls taking him.


For you folks who don't understand twitter, this loosely translates to: College athlete has a good chance at a 5some.

After losing to Norfolk State?? WTF. Mizzou fail forever

UConn transfer is "counting down the days" to Mizzou visit

Read more here: http://campuscorner.kansascity.com/n...#storylink=cpy

That would be nice. A big addition in experience as well, which will help after losing a few seniors.

I admittedly don't know all the rules on transfers, but won't he have to sit out a year?

I think that rule is waived because UCONN was ruled ineligible for next year's tourney, so he can play immediately.

True, and he has restrictions about which conferences he can transfer into.

Why is that?

My understanding was that those restrictions were based on what program the universities offer...so if he chose something a UK or Mizzou that was not offered at UCONN he would be eligible to transfer there. Obviously both Mizzou and UK believe he is eligible to play for them, or they would not be recruiting him.

Agreed. There was a stipulation about not going to the SEC, IIRC. Not trying to start crap, just stating what I thought I read.

Isaac Chew leaving for Illionois

I read the same thing, but then read he could chose a major not offered by UCONN and be okay. Did not think you were starting crap at all, it is something that has been reported out there. Whatever the issue was, both Mizzou and UK must have gotten an okay from the NCAA, or the SEC, or whomever, since they are both making hard pushes to recruit him. I don't think Mizzou would push that hard and burn a scholarship if they were not confident he could play right away.

There is actually a rule in the SEC that disallows 1-year transfers, but it would likely be waived for his situation. Mizzou doesn't join the SEC until July first, so it's moot, anyway.

I remember reading a story on this and I think it said that the SEC has a rule that you can not take a 1 year transfer but that both MU or UK could get that waived. :shrug:

The original story stated that the SEC doesn't allow one-year transfers, but mnchiefsguy is right, it depends on the programs. From another site - Kentucky head coach John Calipari is expected to meet with Connecticut transfer Alex Oriakhi today.

GoodmanCBS Kentucky's John Calipari expected to meet with UConn transfer Alex Oriakhi today. Oriakhi has one year left and can play immediately.

GoodmanCBS I've been told that Oriakhi will be able to play at SEC school if he chooses an area of study that is not offered at UConn.

Oriakhi's father told Hearst Connecticut Media Group on Tuesday that his son will "definitely visit" North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky and Missouri.

Thanks for the info

He ruled out Duke.

Because Plumlee is coming back, I heard.

Noel to UK has to help your chances with Oriakhi just because his path to playing time there is terrible now.

Mike Kelly ‏ @mizzouvoice

Oriakhi coming to mizzou

North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky and Missouri.

Nice company and nice get.