Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10174103)

It's a complicated question that somebody a lot smarter than me would have to answer. Although I would say it's not just about when to say it, but how best to say it, too.

Locker rooms are rough places. We all know that. Hell, this board is basically a locker room, the way we bust each others' balls all the time. That's a part of comraderie and I hope it never changes.

But, at the same time, on this issue, it seems like we all have a tendency to jump all over Jonathan Martin and rush to the defense of Richie Incognito. A guy with a record of disiplinary problems and suspensions going back over a decade. And I say "we" because I was the same way when the story broke. Bullying? In the NFL?! Are you ****ing kidding me?

I've had some time to think about it now, and like I said, I think we're seeing two disparate problems here: one is a Dolphins organization which clearly mishandled an athlete to the point that it's become a public embarrassment, and the other is Martin, a guy that I believe is clearly struggling with mental illness right now. Which is I think notable when we're at a time where hotbutton topics include the ongoing study of concussions and the long term implications of football on mental health in the shadow of Junior Seau and Jovan Belcher and Paul Oliver.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 10174035)

That's why a coach's "psychological" skills are so grossly underrated.

Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10174128)

I'm not sure there's a city where that can be more clearly shown than in KC right now. I mean, hell, we're 9-0 after a 2-14 season with virtually the same starters and I believe the biggest change anybody could point to at this point has been psychological. That's what I think Andy Reid has really brought. And I'm saying that as someone who was heavily critical of his hire in the first place.

And let me ask this: if Martin was on this team right now, does anyone think he doesn't go to Andy Reid first? Or that it even gets to the point where he has to?

Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 10174118)

Incognito is a buffoon, no question. Martin violated the code, imho because he was lacking the emotional capacity to do otherwise.
Any team with any kind of veteran leadership would have settled this in the locker room long ago...

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 10174132)

As much as we used to push "talent wins" around here, I don't think it's the case anymore.

I think coaching is way more important.

Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10174162)

I don't think you can win without both talent and great coaching, unless you can build a roster so overwhelming in talent that they can prosper without great coaching (the current broncos come to mind). Basically all the top teams right have both key players at key positions and good coaches.

Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10174128)

I'm not sure there's a city where that can be more clearly shown than in KC right now. I mean, hell, we're 9-0 after a 2-14 season with virtually the same starters and I believe the biggest change anybody could point to at this point has been psychological. That's what I think Andy Reid has really brought. And I'm saying that as someone who was heavily critical of his hire in the first place.

And let me ask this: if Martin was on this team right now, does anyone think he doesn't go to Andy Reid first? Or that it even gets to the point where he has to?

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 10174205)

I don't like Philbin's response that Martin never approached him. Either he was clueless to an obvious ticking time bomb or oblivious to the entire locker room culture, or he encouraged it. Or he did actually tried to stop it the right way, and is lying. Neither look good on him.

I'm not ruling out that maybe the Dolphins' org did sincerely try to get him help. But given that it sounds like they leaned toward "toughening him up", I doubt it.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 10174185)

I think, with great coaching, you can win without great talent. I'm not sure the other way is really the case.

Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10173959)

You need to be tough to play in the NFL. No doubt about that. I'm talking more about the fact that the guy arbitrarily left the team and entered himself in a hospital. You just don't do that if you're not having some kind of a problem, and I just don't buy the whole publicity stunt angle. I think the guy has issues and he apparently didn't trust anybody on his coaching staff or in their front office enough to go to them.

Reading up on this I find that they actually do mental health evaluations as part of their draft prep (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/m...nderlic-110613) so it boggles me a bit that they don't have some kind of system in place for this kind of stuff.

If the Dolphins handle this whole thing right, this story never sees the light of day. Have him talk to a sports therapist, work out whatever is going on between his ears. His teammates never have to know, the public never has to know, and we can all maintain this comfortable illusion that all men are manly men who never need help from anyone.

That's more my point. Toughen up is the right message sometimes. Just don't think it was here. Mishandled situation by the Dolphins, bad move by Martin, all could have been avoided.

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10174401)

I know I've read that Martin is "being treated" for whatever, but are you sure he's an inpatient at a hospital?

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 10174401)

I know I've read that Martin is "being treated" for whatever, but are you sure he's an inpatient at a hospital?

Originally Posted by Cave Johnson (Post 10174408)

The **** that has to do with anything.

Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10174414)