In the series, Joel is essentially given 30 seconds of dialogue regarding why Ellie is going into surgery but it seems like it is anything but a a sure thing.

To me the finale is all about portraying Joel as a conflicted protagonist. He's obviously an anti-hero from the beginning but takes a major step of serving his own purposes and desires as he saves Ellie since he obviously loves and cares for her.

I find it hard to disagree with his actions though when the audience is not fully aware of the Firefly's homework in regards to the procedure. If Ellie is truly the most valuable resource in finding a cure, wouldn't you want to be absolutely sure that this procedure has a very solid chance of producing a cure before brain surgery? Or even if the Doctor needed to have a better understanding of what was going on inside her brain/skull to further research on finding a cure. We as an audience are not given enough information. The dialogue from last night's episode:

"Our doctor thinks that the cordyceps in Ellie has grown with her since birth. It produces a kind of chemical messenger. It makes normal cordyceps think that she's cordyceps. It's why she's immune." - Marlene

It just seems like the surgery is more of a "hail mary". I didn't feel Joel's decision to save Ellie was unjust. I would feel much more conflicted if there was solid evidence or reasoning why they needed to perform brain surgery.

They have one shot at a vaccine for that shit and it's not even guaranteed. Plus what do they think is going to happen? After years of living in a lawless wasteland...that shit is just going to go back to normal?

I get why people don't side with Joel but I would agree with them...if they had given Ellie a choice.

the game handles it basically the same. Joel wakes up, gets the story about it's in her brain this is what we are doing. In the game there is recordings you can find from exploring that go a little deeper, but the driving force of the story is the same. The fireflies are doing what is right to them to save the world. From Joel's perspective, that would be ending the world. Joel did save the world, his world. But at what price?

Also, LOL at Joel going Rambo on an entire compound-full of trained muscle, but getting shived with a broken baseball bat by some random jamoke

What got me was Marlene telling Joel that basically he knew that Ellie would have went along with it, but Marlene lies to Ellie and doesn't tell her that she's not gonna wake up, so that kind of ****s up that idea. Marlene acting like Joel was a selfish piece of shit for doing that, but not telling a kid that you're killing them is wayyyy more ****ed up. I really hate that Joel lied to her though. That really bothered me and I don't think Ellie really believed him.

Also, a vaccine doesn't really move the needle all that much for me. Things wouldn't change in Joel's lifetime, hell things wouldn't even change in Ellie's lifetime. Plus it would take an incredibly long time to even get a working product. Also you prevent anyone from getting it, but there are still millions of infected roaming around. Joel did the right thing, but Ellie should have been told and given the choice to decide with all the pros and cons. I would have taken the same path as Joel though personally, but I would have told her what happened. I'd just make sure all of them were dead so she had no options of doing it

They pointed out in the intro with the scientists talking. A vaccine against fungal infection does not exist. Because it's not possible. The scientist directly references this fact within minutes of the start of the series. So, why are they wanting to kill Ellie and take out her brain? The **** would they even do with it?

Was that explained in the game better than how weirdly I perceived it in the series?

From a biological standpoint, that's just super silly for them to think they could make a fungal vaccine from Ellie's brain when it was knowingly impossible and even referenced as such in the intro. In addition, medical tech is basically non-existent at this point. Maybe it's just me overthinking it. But that was a rare head scratcher that took me out of it for a moment, in an otherwise awesome series. That bothered me even when the Fireflies initially explained their plan. But I passed it off as maybe they had a big modern human settlement or something.

One thing I felt the finale did well was the role reversal in Joel and Ellie. Typically, Ellie was the outgoing one and always trying to get Joel to open up. In this episode, it felt like Joel was oversharing and "clingy" in a way, while Ellie was doing more of the introspection.

The one thing I did not like was the lie. Whenever he started explaining what happened while she was out, I was like NO NO NO NO NO!!!! They're relationship was bas one survival and mutual trust. Love of a child or not, after everything she's been through, she deserves to know the truth. Being 14 after an apocalypse is totally different than the 14 we think of. I'm sure she could have handled it. She might have been pissed, but they could have worked through it and been okay. She knew he was lying. That's why she gave him the opportunity to come clean. When he didn't, you could literally see her processing it in her head and making the decision of "okay."

This episode felt like a video game. With him overtaking the two guy, making sure to grab his backpack, and then picking up ammo and weapons whenever he ran out. It was cool.

There wasn't a vaccine *yet*. Ellie is a miracle. The writer from the game has confirmed that it would have worked.

That makes what Joel did extremely selfish. Its further proof that love blinds people, especially parents. The father and mother instinct is one of the more selfish things that exist in society that people for some reason think is actually selfless. They (Ellie and Joel) have a chance to save humanity. And all he cares about is how he feels.

I would be cautious assuming any traiining from the Fireflies. They gave a 16 year old girl a handgun and half a dozen pipe bombs with no training at all but she was "sneaky".

Ellie's mom who dies in the beginning was Ashley Johnson, voice actress of Ellie from the game

If he goes the same route, that Joel Miller, who has survived nearly FORTY ****ING YEARS in this apocalypse is all of a sudden gonna decide, out of the ****ing blue to trust a group of people he's never met and follow them right into a trap like a window licking reerun, then anyone who understands ANYTHING about character development and continuity is going to summarily reject this utterly stupid ****ing bullshit.

It wasn't earned in any way, shape or form. It was a shock factor kill, and logic and reason were tossed aside because Druckmann couldn't be bothered to make it happen in a coherent way that made any ****ing sense.

I don't think they'll change it. However I think they'll extend Joel out in this 2nd season and Abby more too so the audience cares more about her. I'd be shocked if they get rid of Joel within an episode or two.

Everyone eventually pays some price for their sins in the post-pandemic world

So you think Joel did not change over the course of the first game or the subsequent time gap of the two games? He wasn't softening his stance to the world and being open to people again? He was a soulless juggernaut the whole time you spent with him? He never aged or changed at all?

Joel Miller inserts his thumb deeply into his anus, and a wide, almost psychotic grin spreads across his face.

HI GROUP OF STRANGERS IVE NEVER MET! WOULD YOU MIND IF I ACCOMPANY YOU INTO THIS BUILDING OVER HERE? I UNDERSTAND THAT IM VASTLY OUTNUMBERED, BUT GOSH DARN IT, YOU SURE DO LOOK TRUSTWORTHY TO ME!!

OH YOU SHOT MY LEG?!!

OH **** IF ONLY I HAD ALMOST 40 YEARS OF SURVIVING IN THIS APOCALYPSE I MIGHT HAVE CONSIDERED NOT FOLLOWING PEOPLE I JUST MET!!

WAIT, ARE WE GOING GOLFING NOW? MY LEG, I CANT.....OH YOU'RE CAVING MY SKULL IN WITH A GOLF CLUB NOW?!!

OH NOOOOEEES!!!

Oh, you're assuming this softening happened. Unfortunately, this is the responsibility of the writer to show this character development. Druckmann unfortunately couldn't be bothered here.

We should not go from soulless juggernaut when we see him last, to WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING JOEL?!

Druckmann was so hyped to shove Abby down our throats, that he just threw this utter trash out there, instead of taking the time to flesh out what has happened with Joel, and make what happened believable.

Werent they also in the middle of a snow storm and it was too far to return to Jackson safely? I can't remember but maybe the show will show what happened in those 6 years between to get Joel to soften up compared to what is assumed in the game

it was 5 or 6 years after the first game which already had Joel opening up to Ellie, he was older, had been living an 'easier' life in Jackson, been with family, not smuggling, no Fedra, no cross country raiders etc. He was living a calmer life. The night before he was basically crying when Ellie said she wanted to forgive him. The whole of the first game and the beginning portions of game two paired with the flashbacks during game 2 serve the purpose of showing him softening perfectly, it just isn't in your face and obviously stated as such just the way they do with everything in both games. They show you, not tell you. They don't hold your hand and instead let you infer what's happening based on what they show. It's wonderful.