So many people want to trade the 2nd round pick....
 

....citing Carl's piss poor 2nd round draft record as a reason that a 2nd for Surtain is a no brainer.

Yet these same people are drooling over the prospect of picking that 1st round CB, or LB, or even WR.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Carl's 1st round draft record nearly as pathetic as his 2nd round record?

What makes any of you think we'll get a stud in the 1st round?

I just don't get it.

Good idea. Who do you think we can trade our first pick for?

A 12 pack of beer...

Knowing Carl he'll **** that up too.
Get some Milwaukees best or something.

How about Takeo Spikes?

Think the Bills would go for it? :p

nah..its not nearly as bad.......

Derrick Thomas
Dale Carter
Tony Gonzalez
Larry Johnson
John Tait


Its harder to screw up a first round pick though..

Yeah, but it's still pretty easy. First round failure rate (in terms of either flat out busts or seriously underperforming what you'd expect for a 1st rounder) is damn near 50%.

That list includes quite a few pro bowls between those guys. Pretty good record. But in the current free agency era you need to hit on more than 1st rounders, and I know that's ChiefsPlanet's complaint about Carl.

You just named 5 guys out 15 drafts, and Tait didn't really play up to his draft position, which is the reason he got moved from the left to right tackle, and Roaf was brought in.

Amnorix tells us it's a 50% failure rate, but even if you include Tait, Carl's failure rate is 66%.

The Patriots got Duane Starks for a low 3rd round pick. I realize that Surtain is two years younger and didn't miss the 2003 season due to injury, but I still fail to see how his value is so much higher than Starks that he rates a high 2nd round pick in compensation in the face of the market the Patriots established.

JMO.

hes had a few more like Victor Riley, greg Hill, Harvey Williams who were not complete busts..and a couple more like SlyMo and Percy Snow who just had bad luck with injurys......so its not all that bad.

Here's all of Carl's 1st rounders. Numerical position of the pick in parentheses.

Derrick Thomas (4)
Percy Snow (13)
Harvey Williams (21)
Dale Carter (20)
Greg Hill (25)
Trezelle Jenkins (31)
Jerome Woods (28)
Tony Gonzalez (13)
Victor Riley (27)
John Tait (14)
Sylvester Morris (21)
Ryan Sims (6)
Larry Johnson (27)

13 first round picks
Average 1st round draft position: 19th

As bad as Carl's done in the 1st round, he's been utterly hopeless in the 2nd round. In 15 years, Grunhard and Tongue...that's it.

A 2nd rounder for Surtain is a no-brainer, IMO.

Sure wish Sims had done better. I would have never guessed he would be such a bust. Oh well, maybe we can get one good season out of him it IS a contract year.

see the only "real" bust was Jenkins.......Snow and SlyMo u cant consider busts. Just unfortunate....

exactly..trade the pick for an already proven vet and pro-bowler?? who is still fairly young? I would have made that trade like a week ago.

And the only real studs are DT and Tony.

LJ looks like he might be, and I still hold out hope for Sims.

But the point is, given Carl's record, I wouldn't be expectingt that stud that all of these people are hoping for.

DC had his problems in the end but he was still a stud.

with that logic you are suggesting we should trade of our picks...

post hoc ergo propter hoc...i would still trust kc first round pick in the draft

Um, I heard no suggestion.

OK, so make it 3 studs, just for the sake of arguement.

That still leaves Carl with a mediocre 1st round history, and still leads me to ask why anyone thinks this will be one of those rare drafts that Carl drafts a stud.

We haven't drafted a player, in any round, that made a pro bowl as a Chief since TG in 1997.

wrong Dante Hall

I'm not suggesting anything.

I'm asking why anyone thinks that Carl's chances in the 1st round are so much better than the 2nd.
He really hasn't done much in either round.

Okay, an actual position player. Hall is notable, though, as a fifth rounder.

Sorry but I don't think it matters two ****s what anyone thinks other than Carl.


--->

me niether

then why should we listen to what you think


:)

You said it.

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that you are a dumbass.

If I'm wrong then I'm sorry, if I'm right you'll never know.

Well then, why the hell are you reading this forum, cause we are all here expessing our thoughts, which don't matter two shits?

well i dont care what your conclusion is...im just saying that if you have any clue about critcal thinking, logic, inference or the rules of inference, shit just algebra might help you alittle..;). its possible you might understand the argument alittle more...you can sometimes:) see things a little clearer and not so one dimension like you son...dont just wait for information try work inference on your own or you will never get a better job son...

im just messin wit ya...do whatever you want loser but if you're gonna insult someone try alittle harder

ha ha

you called me a loser.

now that's funny.

OLB first, please...
 

I think Carl has done a fair job with first rounders considering our average draft position. I think he runs into problems in the second round because he tries to get too cute. It seems like he's always trying to find a diamond in the rough. And it always seems to backfire. I think he'd do a lot better if he drafted players with a record of producing on the field. Especially when drafting defense. To me, the best defensive prospects are the ones that have a proven track-record in college.

Instead of taking the Chris Speilmans of the world, we end up taking the Bartees, Battles, and Mitchells of the world. All great atheletes but not proven defenders.

That said, I think anytime you can get a young pro-bowler at a position of dire need for a second round pick you have to do it.

I agree with this line of thought. Surtain has a 6-8 year window left as top CB. That window can be longer as CBs can switch to saftey once they lose a step. That is a great return for a 2nd round pick. I hope KC takes a pass on this trade

I would rather keep that 2nd round pick especially since we don't have a 3rd this year but only IF we sign a FA CB BEFORE the draft. We must have a different veteran at CB to start the 05 season! If we have to trade the 2nd to get one then we will have to do that.

The Rolle deal falling thru F*** this whole thing up :banghead:

He has already played 7 years in the league to expect him to have 6-8 years left as a TOP CB or even safety at 13-15 years in this league :hmmm: Rod Woodson comes to mind but that's the exception rather than the rule don't you think?

Ronnie Lott, Mike Haynes, Albert Lewis, Darrell Green, Adeas Williams, Willie Brown, Lester Hays, Ray Buchannon, off the top of my head all played effective ball well into their mid to late 30s. Surtain is in that class of players IMO.

I have suggested this on other threads.

Trade our 1st pick for Surtain and Dolphin 2nd pick. That means like last year, that our rookies don't get guaranteed contracts but get money only if they make the team. And we still have 2 picks in the first day. The money we would have had to delegate to our 1st round pick would be freed up to pay Surtain and we would make the hard choices of who to cut based upon who is being productive on the field for those 2nd round choices.

If nothing else, if the Dolphins balked it would most likely be because they can't afford to pay two 1st round contracts for rookies who have 50% chance on not playing and meet CAP. What this says is that the CAP will be the reason Surtain is let go in June anyway in order to meet these new rookie contracts.

A couple things...First off the Fins don't have a 2nd round pick because of their brilliant AJ Feeley trade, they also don't have a 3rd round pick because of the Lamar Gordon trade with the Rams.

As for the guaranteed contracts comment I believe you are thinking of the NBA where 1st rounders get a guaranteed 3 year deal and 2nd rounders don't...NFL isn't like that...Only thing guaranteed is the signing bonus that is put in their hand. Granted because the signing bonuses are getting so big that it is becoming more popular for part of the bonus to be deferred but other than the guaranteed bonuses in the contracts virtually nothing else is.
.

We need a CBotF...
 

Why give up a pick when there are options that don't involve it? Even if we have to sign one of the 2nd tier FA, we would still be able to afford a top of the line LB. Getting Surtain means we are done in FA. It means that we either have to go with a LB that we already have or draft one in the 3rd. Even after getting Surtain, we would still need to draft another CB in the draft to hold us over until Warfield is able to play.

If Miami is looking to rebuild then they need lots of picks. We have at least two of each pick including and beyond the 5th. Can we bundle 4 of those picks instead of the 2nd or do we need those too? Are they worth it to Miami. Just throwing this idea out.

Here is a bio on your 1st rounder. Sounds a lot like what we already have...

From nflcountdown...

Carlos Rogers

Official Bio College: Auburn Height: 6-03/8
Position: Cornerback Weight: 196
Class: Senior 40-Yard: 4.35
SCOUTING REPORT
Strengths: Excellent size and speed for the position...Tough player who will fight through injuries...Great athleticism...Good ball skills and has become a a playmaker as a senior...Has a lot of experience and made an impact early on as a freshman.
Weaknesses: Doesn't always play up to his physical tools...Isn't a great tackler...Not very stout against the run...Has a lot of work to do in terms of his technique...Needs to master the nuances of the position rather than relying on his physical gifts so much.
Notes: Has just the type of size / speed ratio you are looking for in an NFL corner...A bit of an underachiver throughout his career but came on as a senior...You can bet some team will be more than willing to take a chance on a player with his physical tools and he could go a little higher than his play on the field would suggest.

One man's trash...
 

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2005/...os_rogers.html
Carlos Rogers has always been a solid football player, but he truly emerged his senior season. He took home the Thorpe Award for the nations top defensive back, after totaling 47 tackles, 5 for loss, with 2 interceptions. For his career, he had 181 tackles, 7 interceptions, and 45 pass breakups.
Rogers is a great all around corner prospect. He has good size, speed, and athleticism. What makes him a great player however is his attitude. He’s tough, will get in your face, and never give up. He’s just a great football player. He can turn and run with most receivers, make plays on the ball, but will also make a hit in the running game. He has very good instincts and can play bump, man up, or in zone coverage.

Rogers has a lot of experience, but he still relies on talent too much. He needs to get with a coach to teach him the corner spot, and to help him reach his full potential. He could get stronger too, which will help him keep the jam on receivers at the line and help him finish off more tackles.
Rogers took a big step forward this season, and it has resulted in a first round grade. I expect him to hear his name called in the last half of the first round, but with great workouts, he may go earlier than that. He has big time upside, and should be a very good NFL corner.

Pick your poison.

xoxo~
Gaz
Can find positive and negative reviews of just about every player out there.

Great examples, especially Darrell Green. Will the new rules have an effect on who we now consider great secondary players and for how long?

I agree we MUST upgrade our secondary, just wondering as time passes with these new rules will we see a strong secondary not as necessary as a front 7 that can apply strong QB pressure. I know I'm kinda getting off the original subject here (how much longer Surtain has in his tank) but because of the rule changes maybe a 2nd tier DB will be as good as a top CB and save the premier guys for the line and backers.

Gaz
Can find positive and negative reviews of just about every player out there.

I agree after reading through tons of player bios and mocks over the past month that is a very true statement. But there are certain weakness that can't be taught or it could mean that player just does not have the attitude to be strong in that area. One weakness I HATE to see is, Isn't a great tackler...Not very stout against the run... That is about attitude. Does a CB have to have that, probably not, but that is one of the reasons I always hated Deion.

Within the regular NFL salary cap is a second, or sub-cap, for signing rookies (including draft picks), which takes into account the number and placement in the draft order of each team's picks. Each team gets a certain share of a predetermined total amount of money (the "rookie pool") to spend on rookies. Since this money is counted against the overall cap, it's actually a cap within the cap.

For 2004 the Raiders will be allowed to spend up to $5,170,440 in cap money to sign their rookies (both drafted and undrafted).

In 2002 the NFL allocated an average of about $3.8 million per team, but the allocated amount varied from team to team depending on the number of draft picks they had. The Raiders' 2002 allocation for signing rookies was $4,254,000.

http://www.vertgame.com/rookie_pool.html

While it is true the contracts aren't fixed the numbers are pretty well set by this Rookie Cap within the Cap situation. So Miami might get allotted more money with 2 first round drafts but would be pushed over the top in the overall cap. This is what I was referring to.

But if Miami doesn't have a 2nd pick then this is a dead idea.

Who in the Chiefs secondary fits that description? Good Ball Skills and a Playmaker? Bartee has no ball skills what so ever. Neither does Battle.


PhilFree :arrow:

And who in the Chiefs secondary doesn't fit this description?

I really think the problem lies in the fact that Carl, somehow has mistaken "athletic" for "versatile".

I'm not sure about Battle, but Bartee is considered athletic, so Carl (and Gun, for that matter) felt that he had the potential to convert to corner, without giving actual thought to the fact that corner technique requires both good instints, and years of practice for most.

Dale Carter was a rare exception.

They seem to have forgotten about the pevious failed effort of converting Woods to corner.

IIRC, Battle was supposed to be just as athletic if not more so than Carter.

I think we've proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that more than just athleticism is required for the CB position.

I like Rogers but I agree with DTLB58 here. Out of the guys I consider the 4 top corners Rolle, Jones, Browner and Rogers, Rogers is the only one who seems to not like to support the run as much. Even Pac-Man who is more diminutive than the rest attacks the line on runs.

LOLWUT?

This has to be Woodchuck****er

This doesn't feel like woodchucker to me.

Has brianfo been banned?

My guess is joey

+1

Joey, to the best of knowledge, has no reason to stalk me.

Never had any problems with him, that I can recall.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess it's Flopnuts.

He's an evil ****er.

Damn it.

I should have sent those child support checks to his mom.