How many times has the #1 offense in the league not made the playoffs?
 

I bet it isn't very often, if ever. And last year, the D was so bad, we couldn't even finish .500.

Many of you guys do no understand the monumental failure of Gun's 2nd time around here. We did not ask him to give us a great D. All we asked was a good enough D to allow our O to take control of games. He failed completely.

I bet there has never in the history been a team that has led the league in offense two years in a row, and not made the playoffs either year. Not only has Gun been bad, he has set historical precedent. He even outdid Robinson. Robinson's 2002 year was the only year we had this type of O and didn't make the playoffs.

And the amazing thing about it? Most Chiefs' fans want him retained, and the GM will probably do it. No wonder this team has not been to the SB in ages...

You're a jackass, but please keep posting these threads.

Our defense was exactly middle-of-the-pack (16th) in the only defensive stat that matters.

Gunther hasn't been an absolute success, but he hasn't been a monumental failure either. Our yards per rush has improved from a league-worst 5.2 in 2003, to 4.6 in 2004, to 4.1 in 2005.

Ehh our defense has a ways to go but it made some things happen last year...strong against the rush...made big plays...forced turnovers...

They were just very inconsistant....

I question if anyone who thinks they did not get better compared to Robinson's was watching the games this year...

I can think of a number of times where the defense NEEDED to stand up and stop a team in order to preserve a win this year and did.

I can't think of that happening in 2003.

2003 Minnesota 9-7 & missed the playoffs, Chiefs were #2 in offense.

Any team can stop the run if they sell out. I believe we are at the bottom these last two years in yards per pass play.

Overall, yards per play, we were #32 in 04 (by a wide margin) #28 in this year.

It's amazing that idiots like yourself keep defending failure. Please put me on ignore so none of your idiotic responses will pollute threads, and I will do the same.

aside from the nyg debacle, and dal picking us apart, i think the defense did improve this year. no longer was defense a wait and see while i go get a beer time. also, how many plays over 20 yards did they give up this year opposed to two years ago. when you're 32nd in defense, you can't just turn it around in the blink of an eye. it's gonna take time. and if you think any differant, i guess you don't know much about football.

Yeah, it took Lovie Smith years to turn around the Rams, didn't it? It took Mike Martz years on to turn around the Rams offense, too, didn't it?

It took years for Charlie Weis to turn around Notre Dame's offense, didn't it?

Any good coordinator will show improvement his first year. Gun, with the same players as Robinson, was WORSE. What is so damn hard about understanding that?

So, what your saying is, that the D was there until we really needed them?

When we needed a stop, on the road, and while we were still a major player in the Playoff scene, they fn disappeared like a fart in the wind.

Our Pass D sucked cock, and our run D against the Giants was beyond words.

We were 10-6 this year. Any other year that would have gotten us in the playoffs. We were a missed FG away from 11-5.

that was not a #1 offense in Buffalo

#22 in YPA this season. Dead last the year before.

Whoever started this thread is a moron.

Even with the offense being #1 they lost their share of games this year just like the D. We were 10-6. I don't blame the players at all, I dont blame the O or the D, I blame poor coaching at inopportune times.

If at the beginning of the year someone said we would finish 10-6 all of you would have been happy....but because finishing 10-6 didn't get us into the postseason everyone is sour grapes.

Who did Lovie replace?

I hate to pile on here, but when teams like Buffalo are holding this offense to 3 points, you cannot blame the D

Yeah, let's develop a hypothesis from one observation.

Is that relevant?

Playing that 2003 creampuff schedule didn't hurt. That team wouldn't break .500 with this previous season's schedule, and conversely, as you'd expect, the 2005 Chiefs would have won at least 12 games with the 2003 schedule.

Answer my question, and you'll probably answer your own in the process.

Okay, I can make a general statement like this:

"Many of you guys do no understand the monumental failure of Gun's 2nd time around here. We did not ask him to give us a great D. All we asked was a good enough D to allow our O to take control of games. He failed completely"

I think perhaps you should get off of your b_ambuehl like high horse and make a more accurate statement than Gunther failed miserably. We were 6th against the run and 26th against the pass. Our Defense overall? I believe it was in the middle of the pack.

Is that better?

your statement that Gunther taking over the defense was "a monumental" failure, is absurd.

And I apologize for being picky here, but more often than not, a hypothesis IS rooted from a single observation.

:p

Let me get this straight. You are suggesting that Guinta is the reason for the Chiefs' poor D? I guess Joyner is the reason we lost to Indy in the playoffs. If only Morton hadn't dropped those passes.....

Gun had one of the worst D of all-time in 2004. The avg. gain per snap was ridiculous. Those were the same players Robinson had, and they performed better under Robinson than Gun. If Gun isn't a monumental failure, then Robinson isn't a failure at all.

I suggest you read up on the scientific method and get back to me.

"Yeah, it took Lovie Smith years to turn around the Rams, didn't it? It took Mike Martz years on to turn around the Rams offense, too, didn't it?

It took years for Charlie Weis to turn around Notre Dame's offense, didn't it?"


Who gives a shit, not all men are created equal, nor do all men have the same talent to work with when they come into a job. Do you really think anyone at all could have turned this defense from last to top 10 in one year with the players currently on the field? If you really want to blame someone blame CP for not bringing enough talent onto the field.

Don't blame the same Coordinator that had our defense looking like a machine from 95-98 when he had the talent on the field.

Can't make rub two dimes together and it turn into a million dollars, and that seems to be what people wanted Gunther to do with the extreme lack of talent on the Defensive side of the ball this year.

This is the same thing people did when he was head coach, 2 seasons, finished 2nd the first year in the West and 3rd the second year and everyone ran him out of town. Now the same people want to do the same thing to him when he took a defense with hardly any good skill players and went up 16 spots in the rankings, arguably one of the worst 7 man defensive fronts, only 3 players I could actually say are worth a damn are Allen, DJ and Mitchell and still finished 7th in yards allowed rushing.

Yeah sure you can say he sold out to stop the run....but you'd be wrong, very rarely were the safties ever up close to the line. They were back, getting burnt on flea flickers and deep post routes because of their lack of speed and lack of discipline....but yeah that's Gun's fault.

Okay, you still need to use your own advice, average yards per snap? Is ambeuhl writing your stuff now?

That's a single observation by the way. why is it a monumental failure. One liners about the scientific method won't take away from the fact that your statement is still absurd.

Dude, it's no use - he is convinces of his superiority and there is nothing you can do, including using his stats against him, to change his mind. If you bring out 6th against the run, he will bring out total yards per snap. It's all semantics. It doesn't matter, he doesn't like Gunther.

I just don't like dudes who come on here and say things like "you all don't know" or "you all don't realize" like he's the only dude on the planet that watch the games and read stats.

Robinson had a nice run, too, during Denver's glory years. Does that make him a great coordinator, too?

The fact is when Robinson and Gun had the same players, Robinson's D had better stats, and way more turnovers. That is 16 games worth of data, and it is pretty clear from that data that Gun is a worse DC than Greg Robinson, who we all agree sucked.

You let him go on a spending spree, and he improves the D marginally? Well, BFD! Who wouldn't show improvement when two rookies of the year, and an all-Pro CB are signed?

FYI, Robinson never finished better than 22 in total defense, actually his last 2 years he finished 32nd and 29th.....and you say he did better with the same players....last time I checked 16 was a lower number than those 2 and I believe lower is better in regards to what we are talking about.

The Chiefs were #6 in offense. They were three ppg behind the #1 offense.

Eh, the Gunther-apologists will argue though this defense is "making progress".

At this rate, if Gunther stays, expect to have a playoff caliber defense by the year 2087

Gun has more to work with now than Robinson ever did. When they had the same squad, Gun gave up a almost a TD per game more than Robinson did. Why is that an unfair comparison?

I do think the defense is better than 2003. I think if nothing else we're more physical, which is a good thing. That 2003 D did have some stops though.. we stopped the Broncos after Dante's return... I remember we forced the fumble that led to the win in Green Bay.. and of course that Oakland game we stopped them on the 1 yard line at the end. I think we're better though, but in the end we didn't get the job done, Gun didn't accomplish what he was brought here to do.

Just observing a trend. When Guinta had to share co-coord w/John Bunting, the Rams were top 10. Bunting goes to NC and builds a powerhouse college D, Guinta helms a bottom feeder in StL the very next year. Guinta goes to KC and Lovie comes in, and the Rams are back on top and the Chiefs are at all time embarassing lows.

Better stats?
Robinson 2001-2003
|---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL
CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD
296 491 3403 6.93 19 13 481 2140 4.45 15 5543
403 616 4396 7.14 27 18 431 2067 4.80 19 6463
333 565 3614 6.40 19 25 453 2344 5.17 18 5958

Gunther 2004-2005
312 522 4213 8.07 32 13 398 1834 4.61 18 6047
325 558 3679 6.59 25 16 383 1570 4.10 11 5249


Really how much better are they? How much does YPA really matter when your defenses are still giving up more yardage total?

And I keep seeing you say Gun came in with the same players G-rob left. So G-Rob left in 2003 with the 29th ranked D and Gun inherited those players and went to 32nd.....so you'd been fine with Gun if his D finished 28th in 2004? Your logic....well there isn't any.

Point being here you're bashing a good D coordinator, the same one who had the ball hawking, staunchiest run defenses from 95-98 because he was forced to use the talent he was left, and that's exactly what it was he was left a cesspool of players. I can't even really name one skill player on defense that deserves the title of "skill" player.

Like I said, you want to blame someone, blame CP and DV for neglecting the defense for the last 5 years, for thinking that all the defense had to do was go on the field and it wouldn't matter because the offense would score 45 points.

Don't blame the guy who they brought back in to try to fix their mess.

He's been fired. I'm glad. It doesn't let Gun off the hook for inheriting a terrible squad from Greg Robinson AND MAKING THEM WORSE.

Just give Gunther 10 more years, he'll get it done.

We're set.

So then what you're saying is that you dont consider going from 32nd in defense to 16th in defense progress.

No offense but I'm guessing you haven't been around long, we're not defending some scrub D-Coordinator who has never done anything.

We're defending a guy that we know has a great defensive mind and who has showed it in the past when he was surrounded by more than 2 good players on defense.

Do me a favor all you people that want to blame Gunther for the defensive failure, name me 3 players on the defense that you would say played great this year.

I'll give you mine.

Allen
Surtain(no he didn't have INT's but that's the point of a shut down corner, very rarely was his reciever thrown to.)

And that's it.

You could put Mitchell in that list as he did do a good job his first season at MLB but I wouldn't put him in the great category.

I feel the losses, I hate being a fan of an underachieving team just like everyone else. But I will at least try to put the blame where it belongs and I'm sorry I can't blame the defense totally for us not making the playoffs. Last year I could have, this year I think the defense played well enough for the talent it fielded.

We need to start Carlos Hall opposite of Allen, get a big run stuffing tackle to complement Sims, Get rid of Bell and get a Safety that can run a 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds unlike the 2 we have now. And let Gun have a another year, if CP brings in talent and he still fails then you'll all be right.....my guess is that wouldn't happen. You can go back to his days as Raiders D coordinator and everything i'm saying even applies to then.

The two most relevant years are 2003 - 2004. Nothing changed except coordinators. Our run D improved a little, but look what happened to our pass D and TOs. Robinson and Gun were equally bad.

We'll never see eye to eye on Gun. But how about this: we let GMs decide. If Gun really is improving this unit, he should be in demand if we hire Marinelli instead of Gun. If Gun is as good as you claim, he should have no problem getting another DC job. I don't think he will. In other words, I just don't think it is myself and Go Chiefs who thinks Gun is not a good coordinator.

Neither should the same Coordinator get all the props when he has two stud Defensive players to make plays for him.

I think GRob might have had a better defense if he would have been coaching DT and NS.

This is my very favorite version of the "it's not Gunther, it's the players" excuse.

Let's see:

All we need to do is replace Kendrell Bell, Sammy Knight, and Junior Siavii, 3 guys that were HAND-PICKED BY GUNTHER.

ROFL

You're right he did have a nice run and Denver and no that doesn't make him a great coordintor, it does however prove my point.

What good is having 70 INT's a season, 3000 fumble recoveries and still be 29th in yards allowed?

And if you look up at the stats I posted the Yards per play only Gun's D's only averaged maybe giving up a little over a yard more per play.

In Denver he had talent, he did well. In KC he didn't have talent, he did Poor.

1995-1998 Gun had talent, he did well. 2004-2005 He didn't have talent, he did poor.

Belichek in Cleveland, Poor. Belichek in N.E. Genius.

It's a pattern, do you see it? When any coach is surrounded by talent they will excel.

Take Guns talent away he's just a good Defensive minded guy with nothing to work with. Take G-Rob's talent away, same thing.

My question to you is how can you blame Gun for the talent or lack thereof, that is on the field?

Because in the end that's what you are doing.

I thought Gun wanted Bell and Knight and Hall and Surtain. And that is who CP brought in. Actually gave Gun DJ to work with too. And we still sucked on D.

Say goodbye to Gun, and start the Edwards era with a new DC.

God-damned message board! :cuss:

This is my very favorite version of the "it's not Gunther, it's the players" excuse.

Let's see:

All we need to do is replace Kendrell Bell, Sammy Knight, and Junior Siavii, 3 guys that were HAND-PICKED BY GUNTHER.

I just noticed this:

You can go back to his days as Raiders D coordinator and everything i'm saying even applies to then.

Somebody didn't do their research. Here's Gunther's entire career as a defensive coordinator:

Year - Points Allowed - Yards Allowed

Chiefs
2005 - 16th - 25th
2004 - 29th - 31st

Chiefs
1998 - 22nd - 9th
1997 - 1st - 15th
1996 - 11th - 17th
1955 - 1st - 4th

Raiders
1994 - 17th - 12th
1993 - 21st - 10th
1992 - 11th - 8th

Bears
1980 - 4th - 11th
1979 - 3rd - 6th

You read too quickly. That "Bears" is the California Golden Bears. He didn't come into the NFL until the early 80's as a D-line coach for the Colts. And he was demoted from DC to D-line coach with the Raiders in 94...

it took awhile for our offense to get its act together and I believe that cost us a couple of games. Our defense actually seemed really decent the first few games if I remember correctly. We just need the offense and defense to gel at the same time for once.

I give Carl his fair share of blame in acquiring these players. I just don't want Robinson or Gun as my D-C, despite past successes. Both seem to require multiple all-Pros to be effective.

I reallly don't think Gregg Williams has all that much to work with in Washington.

How much money did Gun spend in the offseason trying to upgrade? Shouldn't it have gotten us more than the debacles in Dallas and NY? As I said, I do not think the rest of the league will look favorably upon Gun's effort here. I think it has been bad enough that he will never be a DC again. We will see.

Belichick actually had the #1 ranked defense in his 2nd to last year in Cleveland. Then the next year they announced the move to Baltimore and it all fell apart.

And you can blame Gun for the talent on the defense because Carl and DV let him hand pick it. They let him make a list of the players he wanted... and Carl actually went out and got them signed. That's actually quite an accomplishment by Carl, it's not a video game out there, to actually sign all your top FA targets is pretty good.

By golly, you're right.

Take those two years out and look at what's left...

Ouch.

When you guys got Gunther to replace Robinson I said that it would be like when Rhodes replaced Robinson for us. The defense looks better but fails when you need a timely stop. It almost seems like an inevitable step when going from shitty to decent. We offed Rhodes because of it, you guys might end up losing Gunther for the same reason.

Usinig your logic, how could you blame any coach for their team sucking? The difference between good coaches and bad, are how much they get out of their players.

Okay, there should be a rule against adopting other people's old avatars, because I was thinking this was htismaqe's post, and I thought I had somehow wondered into another dimension.

You forgot to mention that Martz went out and got him SEVEN new defensive starters after the 2000 Peter Guinta disaster.

...And scheme. You act like Gun stepped into the job and nothing changed except the results. The reality is, he implemented a new scheme, and the players didn't pick it up very well the first year. Clearly they improved in the second year. Now if you want to use htis' arguement that they will regress this year, that's one thing. But to say that Gun did worse with the same players as GRob is ignoring a key part of the puzzle.

All the talk of mutiple years needed to pick up a scheme is pure myth. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a new DC's best year was his first. Other teams do not know the various schemes and tendencies, and don't have tons of film to study.

During his first go-round here, Gunther's best year was his first year. It didn't take him years to get his scheme implemented. Robinson's best year was his first. It'd be interesting to look at large samples, but I am confident in the result that the general rule would be that it didn't take years to implement a scheme.

Yet another bogus excuse for Gunther's failure.

Uhh, during Gun's first go round, he took over a top ten defense with a potential HoF pass rushing LB. Hardly a valid comparison.

Did Ron Rivera turn the Bears around in his first year?

Comparing Robinson's D of 2003 to Gunther's D of 2004 is bogus IMO. Robinson had been here 3 years and had people knowing and understanding what he expected of them and what they could expect of those playing around them. There is no way to expect someone with completely different schemes to just walk in the door and get people on the same page of the hymnal. Heck, it was a totally different hymnal.

You will also note that the D did improve from 2004 to 2005. Some people want to say it was due to improvements in personnel and they would be somewhat right. But of those we added, how many of them are the fans happy with now? Bell failed miserably to live up to his hype and Knight take a week to go 40 yards.

I have no problem giving Gun one more year. If the defense is not noticably better than 2003, run him out of town on a rail again. But if this defense is top 10 in scoring this next season, I expect the crow population in KC to drop to an all time low due to how many are being eaten.