LET GUN FINISH WHAT HE STARTED
 

In the final 8 games,

against 4 playoff teams:
NE - 7th in total Offense,
DEN - 5th in total Offense,
@ NYG - 4th in total Offense,
CIN - 6th in total Ofense

and 2 that were in the playoff race:
SD - 10th in total Offense,
@ DAL - 13th in total Offense


our Defense ranked 12th in NFL.

"First you take their heart, then you take their soul"



Isn't this what we all wished for in '02, '03, and '04?

Why doesn't anyone blame the offense for the eggs they laid against Buffalo, Denver (1st game) and Giants?

hey... maybe if you yell louder you can get more people to listen.

You've got a point.
And no job.

YEAH

still got the job for now, but my internet keeps shutting down.

I wonder if I've been sabotaged by me superiors :hmmm:

Just doing it the way Gun would want

WHAT

Too bad when we needed the D to come through in Dallas and NY it failed miserably.

are your sleeves ripped off ... are you wearing yellow glasses?



i thought not ................ next!!

but no one blames the offense for the eggs they laid against Buffalo, Denver (1st game) and Giants.

Where's the call for Saunders' head?

Denver game - team loss
Buffalo game - O sucked
Giants game - 17pts for the O but the D held Tiki Barber to 212 yds rushing


The way I figure it the O has been carrying this team for 5 years while the D hasn't did shit

When discussing Gun's effectiveness, only 2005 is valid, forget GRob's incompetence.

But everyone is throwing fits because of Gun's return, and crying for Saunders to be the HC.

Gun did a lot of good, and with a defensive minded HC to back him up, he should be able to improve more.

Actually, I'd have much preferred letting Saunders finish what he and Vermeil started...with a new DC next year, of course.

We lose Saunders, and keep Gun. Great, just great.

I'll un-spin your argument now...

New England... No Corey Dillon or Kevin Faulk

Denver... Chiefs defense was shredded most of the game. I wouldn't call a 31-27 game a great defensive effort

Dallas... defense was ripped apart by a crappy offense (and I don't care what Dallas' statistical rank is, see what their offense did against Washington and in the final game against a horrible Lambs defense)

NY Giants... Tiki Barber toyed with the Chiefs defense

San Diego... only legit good defensive effort in your list of teams

Cincy... played Kitna most of the game

Gunther's "effectiveness" in 2005... 25th ranked defense and 30th ranked pass defense.

Al Saunders in 2005... #1 ranked offense

That's why there tends to be more positive feelings towards Al Saunders, genius.

and those are times when the D needs to step up.

And id bet ANYONE watching those games had ZERO confidence that a Gunther Cunningham defense would or COULD step up.

Even though he's NEVER done it before, in his entire career?

yeah, those 90's defenses really sucked.


I know he had DT and NSmith, but we have talent here too.


I want to see what happens when Grandpa isn't screwing everything up, and the focus of the team isn't totally on the offense.

Well done, soldier.

And the San Diego game was suspect. There were open WRs all over the field. Brees simply couldn't plant his feet in that terrible field, and the SD receivers dropped tons of passes in the rain. Under normal conditions, that game would have been a shootout.

Cinci quit in that game after Kitna came in. They quit the next week to against Pitt. (By the way, Marvin Lewis is supposed to be a genius. Cinci's D is horrible and they win with O. Marvin Lewis = overrated.)

Parker's point is that Gunt has never improved a defense's statistical ranking in 2 consecutive years.

I think the New England and Denver games were among our better D efforts. New England didn't have a running game, no, but this is the same team that won two Super Bowl titles without a running game, and it was really their only blemish in a streak where they were killing everybody.

And Denver's a damn good offensive team. I seem to have way more respect for Denver than most people that follow the NFL though. I think that's why Gonzo picked them to win yesterday, he's actually played against them. That team is like two plays from being a 15-1 team... and they have shredded people all year. But that 2nd game, Shanahan had to pull every trick play in the book to beat us, and he still couldn't do it. We made all the key plays and stopped them in the 4th quarter, and beat them down physically.

number of 1st round picks

offense:

Gonzo
Roaf
johnson
kennison

defense:

sims
johnson
woods
washington

Kind of like school, you do good you move on and you do bad you stay until you get it right?

a change at defensive coordinator will set back the defense back another 3 years. its dificult to learn a new system on offense or defense. this offense has one more year of dominance in it, assuming roaf or shields or both come back. stay the course. gun will field a top 15 defense next year. the only thing he needs to do different is press the corners and do the number 1 number 2 thing, instead of left and right.

Where's your evidence of this? Gun's first year with the Chiefs (1995) is by far his best. Marty's best D was his first year here. This myth of 2-3 yeards needed to implement a system...it's just total b.s.

Gun should be embarrassed to be in the presence of Al Saunders.

Maybe he is, and that's why he moved from upstairs to the field.

It may be a little different then taking over a D that already had quality players like DT, James Hasty, and the others. Gun took over a rock bottom D this time around so perhaps his chances of improving in back to back years is a little better. What were the rankings of the D in Guns good years? High enough I wager that improving it would have been pretty tough to do. I don't really remember but wasn't one of those Ds the #1 ranked D in the league? Since we were 25th in 2005 I have a hunch that Gun will see his second straight year of defensive improvement.

PhilFree:arrow:

I figured a half hour would be plenty of time for my statement to be rebutted. Go ahead it ain't gonna hurt my feelings. Really I can take it :)


PhilFree:arrow:

I've been busy.

Stats on Gunther.
You'll have to ask Parker for the link.

Just looking at his tenure with the Chiefs Guns D was 1st in points allowed twice and both times his D didn't improve in that catagory the following year. With yards allowed one year it got worse but the other time it improved. I don't think Parkers argument is even close to water proof.


PhilFree:arrow:

His overall record is one of inconsistency.

He hasn't consistently fielded the top 10 defense in any category.

His lack of consistency is, and has always been, my problem with Gun.

But the fact that there is such a disparity from year to year in points allowed is "glaring".

Gunther's D DID make a big improvement from last season:

110 points less (27 per game down to 20) and gives up 50 fewer yards per game. The ranking didn't improve much because we were so far down toward the bottom.

To put this improvement in perspective, if Gunther does it again....we become an elite defense giving up 278 yards per game and 13 points per game.

And if his history is indication of how next season's defense will fare, then we could very well end up from 25th to dead last in points allowed.

I can agree with him being inconsistent but to say it's a glaring negative for keeping him this year I can't. And to say that his D won't improve this year from last year with that argument is stretching IMO. He never had to start with a D as bad as ours before. I got a $Fiver that says our D improves under Gun for a second year in a row.


PhilFree:arrow:

I'm going to go drive my cyber nascar for a bit but i'll be back later to read the posts.

Peace Out,

PhilFree:arrow:

How many top 10 offenses did we play vs. IND?

Do you think they would have been so highly ranked if we switched schedules?

did you read my topic starter?

we had an ABOVE-AVERAGE defense the last half of the season, against the top offenses in the NFL.

the improvement is obvious.

Isn't that what we all wished for?

now we trash the guy for not improving enough, only because we didn't go to the playoffs, which is Grandpa Dick's fault

I'm not one that usually puts a lot of stock into stats, alone.

I've always based my opinions based on what I see on the field of play, moreso than in any stats.

I've always argued that Gun is inconsistent, before I ever saw any stats. and that has always been my problem with him.
And this was what I was saying when he was hired after Spinner resigned.

In this particular case, I think there is a likelyhood that the Chiefs D would be improved next season.

But what would we base it on?

Points scored?
Overall defensive ranking?

It's possible that the defense could improve in overall rank, but fall in scoring.
It's also possible that the defense could improve in scoring rank, and fall in overall rank.

Is it a better D if they finish 19th in overall defense, but 18th is scoring?

Is it a better defense if they finish 15th in scoring, but 28th in overall defense?

I've always thought that numbers can be too arbitrary in determining an individual's, or team's, performance.

This only supports my belief that numbers are too arbitrary.

We will be improved next year because our schedule is easy as hell, like this year's dolts.

and numbers aren't arbitrarary, they are a measuring stick for those that can't watch every game of every team in the season.

So did you watch every Colt game?

shit, they showed every one of their games on TV, of course I did.

So, then, according to you after having watched every one of their games, their defense isn't as good as their numbers?

-----------------------------------
Originally Posted by htismaqe
100% false. He's had ONE season where his defense finished top 10 in both yards and point allowed. ONE.

Year - Points Allowed - Yards Allowed
Chiefs
2005 - 16th - 25th
2004 - 29th - 31st

Chiefs
1998 - 22nd - 9th
1997 - 1st - 15th
1996 - 11th - 17th
1955 - 1st - 4th

Raiders
1994 - 17th - 12th
1993 - 21st - 10th
1992 - 11th - 8th
---------------------------------------------
So, it appears, since Stenerud missed the overtime field goals against Miami, The Chiefs defense has basically sucked - save for one year.

And even though 60% of the current players apparently suck, a new DC would provide a huge lift by leaving tooth marks on their arses.

Or: Gun and the players suck, but we want a DC that doesn't suck - until we are ranked 24th in defense next year, then he will suck too.

Man, I wish all these guys were women with all the suckin' goin' around ROFL ROFL ROFL
They'd probably suck at that too!! ROFL

From what I understand Herm Kept Gun based on the Players Request

That, I'm sure was part of it.

:thumb:


exactly.

look at their schedule

But you clearly have to be wrong, since numbers aren't arbitrary.

an intelligent fan knows to look at the name of the team next to the numbers

So an intelligent fan can use their dicretion to determine that the numbers aren't really indicative of a team's true performance?

yes, an intelligent fan can look at the statistics I displayed and see that the Chiefs played good defense at the end of the season against good offenses.

the same intelligent fan can look at the good numbers the colts showed on defense, but look at the defenses they played and discredit those numbers.

I hope not, that has been a miserable failure approach twice before.

intelligent is yiddish for "homer"...

So, by your own admission, thos numbers are arbitrary.

http://m-w.com/dictionary/arbitrary

ROFL :shrug: ROFL

















:BLVD: :bong:

First of all, why in the hell do we look at yards allowed? It doesnt mean shit. The only defense stat that matters is points allowed.

In regards to the "never improved two years in a row", I'm not convinced that's an accurate benchmark of Gun's ability to build a D. It's looking at stats in a vacuum, ignoring any details that may have accompanied the situation. What role did injuries and player turnover play?

As someone else mentioned, Several of the times Gun's D got "worse" it was following a year when they were first in the league. They had nowhere to go but down.

Also previously mentioned, Gun has never had to build a D up from rock bottom, so previous examples aren't comparable situations.

I'm not a Gun homer, and I'm not convinced he'll get this turned around. But so far most of the arguments against him being able to are pretty weak IMO.