Tony Gonzalez opens up on Herm with both barrels
 

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/387172.html

Chiefs can’t come back against Chargers
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

The Chiefs lost their ability to make enough plays to win close games some time ago. They ran out of explanations shortly afterward.

Now they’re just plain out of gas. They trailed by a mere touchdown for most of the second half of Sunday’s game against San Diego at Arrowhead Stadium, but they might have played until midnight without getting that elusive tying score.

So they wound up losing 24-10, and the defeat pushed the 4-8 Chiefs to the brink of extinction in what passes for a race in the AFC West. They’re officially done if they lose to the Broncos in Denver next week.

The Chiefs tried their usual formula — keep things close until the fourth quarter and make the plays to win it then. It worked for them earlier in the season but again failed on Sunday when they were shut out in the final quarter for the fourth straight game.

“I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with. I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team. That’s bull. Let’s just go out there and win a football game.

“Let’s get rid of that stress. I’m tired of it. I’m sitting on the sideline thinking, ‘Here we go again.’ You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.”

That crisis of confidence was evident Sunday. Their seven-point deficit for most of the second half felt to them like a lot more.

Things got so bad for the offense that its only touchdown was scored by defensive end Jared Allen, who played on the goal-line ostensibly for blocking purposes. And Allen had to make a great catch of Damon Huard’s fade pass to do it.

“When you’re desperate,” Edwards said, “you do desperate things.”

Edwards hasn’t been desperate enough to change his philosophy on how to win. He defended it again Sunday, saying it’s the only way the Chiefs have a chance.

“We made plays (to win some early-season games),” Edwards said, referring to wins over Minnesota, San Diego and Oakland, all games the Chiefs salvaged in the fourth quarter. “That’s how we won.

“We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things we’re stuck with because of how we have to play.

“That’s OK. You can still win games that way. We just can’t get behind like that because that just puts you in a bad, bad way.”

The burden of keeping the game close fell to the defense, which again caved in. LaDainian Tomlinson rushed for 117 yards and two touchdowns in the second half.

“We know they’re going to make plays, realistically,” Allen said. “But to (heck) with that. Our mind-set has to be that they won’t make any plays. When stuff like that becomes acceptable, and all of a sudden you find yourself saying, ‘Oh, here we go again,’ that’s when the same (stuff) happens. That’s what’s been happening.

“We need to change the mind-set around here. The mind-set has got to be that this is not acceptable to lose at home. It’s not acceptable to be 10-10 at halftime and lose 24-10.”

The marvel regarding the Chiefs is not the five-game losing streak, their longest since 2000, or the five Arrowhead losses, most since they also lost five in 2001.

It’s that with this team — even with its numerous and obvious flaws — they won four of five games earlier in the season.

“Even then, we had some issues,” guard Brian Waters said. “When you look at games like Chicago and Houston, we had a couple of opportunities to come back in those games as well.

“We’ve started slowly in some parts of the season and now we’re not finishing the way we were. Really, we’re just trying to find a complete game.”

:bravo:

AFT

nice! TG does need to speak up a little bit!

Come on Tony, lead the revolt....

He's definitely regretting his decision to resign. He is a great teammate, and sometimes the best teammates have to step up and speak out when the coach is a loser. If he won't listen to you in the lockerroom, sometimes you have to go to the media.

I think TG has earned the right to say whatever he damn well please. Good for him.

Good for Tony. Though he shouldn't say Herm wants to either because Herm obviously doesn't want to.

Earned more right then Herm ever will.... Herm hasnt earned any respect from anybody... Why should anyone respect Herm?

IF Tony gives up on Herm, that should be ther first sign that Herm needs to go...

Tony is more valuable to the organization than Carl.

How is it "opening up" on Herm when he says "I don't want to play this style of football and I don't think Herm wants to"? Isn't that opening up on Solari?

Excuse my french, but.... **** HERM.

Generally, I applaud this, but today - I didn't see where Herm killed us. We got killed by poor execution on offense. They were throwing the ball a lot today, though. I thought they looked a lot less conservative this week.

yes

That's kind of how I read it..but I suppose I'm not a staunch Herm-Hater.

Uh no, this is Herms offense... Solari is just a martyr... Herm has been down this road a many of times. He will fire Solari and next year the offense is the same.

Same thing the NYJ fans went through...

Of course. Although, Herm is next. His offensive philosophy sucks. He needs to be force fed an OC that is established, and has a history of success.

This is true..but Anti-Herms won't let him off the hook for losing this game. Damn him..and his inability to block or throw the ball..or catch it for that matter.

It's fairly obvious Herm has one of the most talented offenses in the league...he just can't coach. :rolleyes:

Yep.

I am really hoping Clark grows some balls and cleans house but I am not expecting that

Maybe because this offense has went through 12 weeks of Herm showing no faith or trust in them, giving them absolutely zero confidence to succeed..

I have never seen a coach bash his own team and not stand up and give them the opportunities to show faith and trust in his own team...

Herm has killed this offense single handly, not injuries.. Not one person on this offense actually believes in Herm. How could you?

With herm as HC he should have known not to sign on with the chiefs last year.

No, I bet he wishes he resigned. He's smacking his forehead for re-signing, though.

Tony should go to Carl Peterson and tell him he's going to retire RIGHT NOW unless the Chiefs fire Herm Edwards and all his pathetic coaches, INCLUDING THAT MORON GUNTHER, and bring in someone else. I bet that would get Carl's attention real fast. And maybe Tony could get Larry Johnson, Derrick Johnson and Jared Allen to go in with him on the deal.

I look at it very simply if Herm knew going into the season that our O-Line was going to suck then it is his fault for not trying to fix it. If he didn't know then everyone should question what the **** was he looking at during practice.

This thread is exactly why this board is almost unreadable anymore.

You'll come around.

Tk give us your take.

Also the shit we have seen from this O-Line is the same shit I saw during pre-season damn we got some stupid mother****ers running this team.

Good for you Gonzo ... Frickin' Herm.. 60s style-ball ...

Strange? I see where you are coming from...

But if that was the case, how come Herms teams go through this regularly and he cant keep a OC longer than 2 years?

What is the difference in our offense now, than the NYJ's offense during Herms tenure? According to my NYJ friends and games I have watched from Herms tenure there. It is the same exact offense.

The guy just refuses to change with the times, accepts zero responsibility for his team or coaching decisions, talks down to the media and fans, cant coach his self out of a wet paper sack. I just cant defend the moron.. No way no how... The guy has zero credibility and deserves no respect for throwing his team under the bus.

No, I won't.

Everyone has their breaking point, man. I was in Herm's corner for a long time, longer than most. I suspect you'll join our merry band when the Chiefs start out 0-2 or 1-3 again next year.

Then why did Tony specifically exclude Herm from what he was saying?

What was done today that was so bad?

Was it throwing the ball to a defensive end? Was that too conservative?

Was it the multiple trick plays we called?

Going for it on fourth down after what happened last week and giving it to the kid again? That tells Kolby Smith you believe in him.

Was it Huard throwing the ball 35 times (tied for the most attempts he's ever had in a game in his career) We had 40 attempts total today, and if you add in the 8 sacks we called almost 50 pass plays to ~20 or so running plays. Was that was too conservative?

Or was it the fact that we can't block anyone, that we are playing with a stopgap QB and about 4 stopgap players on the line?

Well BigRock I dont know?

Maybe it was directed at Dick Curl and Solari?

At this point I would trust satan himself over anything Herm spewed out of him cock holster.

Only scoring 10pts.

Right now the Chiefs are averaging 14.3 pts a game. On this losing streak they are averaging 14 and 4 of those games were at home. Pathetic.

It is really self-fulfilling prophesy. Herm wants to win games in the fourth quarter, so he plays the whole game in order to make that happen. The offense just keeps getting worse and worse as he scales things back more and more. He breeds self-doubt in the offense.

I don't see how this game is on Herm. Everyone complained that he wouldn't throw the ball around, and with Croyle, they didn't. But he didn't kill us with playcalling today. Hell Solari's game looked more like Mike Martz today in terms of pass/run.

I don't remember seeing any kind of a call were I was like "That's herm, being conservative."

He has been doing that since day one!

Yep that is exactly what Tony is trying to say.

It's not one day. It is cummulative since the day he got here and started telling Trent Green he has to quit taking risks with the ball. The effects are cummulative. We just keep getting worse and worse. The things that worked last year don't work this year, even after we supposedly upgraded the OL and recieving corp. That is a sign of a bad coach.

But that doesnt mean the players trust the HC and have confidence that he will put them in a position to succeed. Without that, the players wont give 100% for that coach.

Herm is way to negative to be a head coach. He started bashing the prior coaching staff from day one for validation... That right there shows that he is a weak minded individual.

I agree. While watching the game I thought wow they really opened up this O since Damon is the QB.

Also I think because the Chargers aren't very good against the pass it was a favorable matchup to throw the ball.

:bravo:

Your on a roll tonight!

I think they are mistaken to coddle Croyle so much. Definitely. They should let him do what Damon tried to do today.

But I don't buy at all that Herm hates passing and all that. He has a different tolerance for risk than most coaches. Too low for most of our tastes including mine. But why this comment and why today? He didn't kill us today.

Call out the linemen for looking like they've quit, call out Huard for not being able to hit a receiver in the numbers... put the blame where it belongs. JMO

Yep also a couple of people on the radio today mentioned how they saw the Chiefs run the EXACT same pass play 4 times in the game. Now when AS was here heck he wouldn't run the exact same play in 4-5 games. This team and play calling is way to predictable.

True Cochise, but Herm has shattered everyones confidence in the offense including the players...

To me, the way I see it, the players are losing faith in their Head coach. Not a good thing to happen for the team...

You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.

But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!

For the record I am not a Herm hater nor am I a Herm lover. I want to see this team grow and prosper over the next few years and think that Herm can do a good job for us with the 08 draft picks and go from there. I think he can bring us tallent that will win us games, his coaching skills have a lot to be desired though.

It's hard to see any progress becouse Brodie didn't start soon enough in the season and we were stuck with Hutard today. Huard sucked the life out of this team and this season imo, I blame Carl Peterson for that.

I want to like Herm but am having a hard time doing so with all of the losses but I did see some good things with imagination of having JA catch a TD and trying a WR pass. This team needs to grow and show heart, that is what matters now.

The sad thing is outside of the QB situation the rest of the team is not progessing but degressing on both sides of the ball. This team is not getting better but worse. With only 4 games left is not enough time for Brodie to make that much differance but I can only hope with Brodie that things will start to improve and quickly.

I don't know what to think right now.

I think like cdcox said it is just the cumulative effect of holding back the offense that they have 0 confidence right now.

Also I just don't believe Herm prepares this team good enough and it shows on game day.

I know tk13 and a few others around here still believe. They're patient. They think if we give it another year or two, we'll see progress and things will turn around. We'll get a winning record, get a playoff game, earn playoff experience, build on that, take the next step, etc.

Who knows, maybe they're right.

But I just don't have any faith in a Carl organization anymore. And I mean than in a quasi-religious way -- I have lost my faith. Not my fanhood -- I still follow the team -- but I just can't give Carl and Co. the benefit of a doubt anymore.

I'll still be here, although I may be an emotional zombie through much of it. And if we do turn it around, tk13 and zouk and those guys can really rub it in and tell me they were right.

Godspeed to them. I just don't have the energy to take one more leap into the fire with Carl.

This is ridiculous. The Chiefs did everything on offense today. They play actioned, they ran spread, they threw on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs. They tried to run a reverse pass. People on this board were posting in the 1st half that this was the kind of play calling they had been waiting for all year.

But the offensive line cannot win 1 on 1 blocking assignments. Period. It's proven over and over again. And if your O-line can't block, there's no sequence of play calls you can come up with over the course of 60 minutes to overcome getting your ass beat physically.

This team today was starting 3 offensive linemen, 1 blocking tight end, and 1 starting receiver who will be out of football next year. They are no longer NFL caliber.

Tony G is understandably frustrated by playing around incompetence. He fights and gives 100% all the time, and his tremendous efforts have been routinely turned to **** by the rest of the offense all year. All he said is that he doesn't want to continue to play this way and he doesn't think Herm wants to either. He's right. Which is why this offseason they will dump all the leftover relics of the Vermeil era that can't play anymore, and bring in replacements.

And how is that vaunted Jets' offense now that they finally got rid of Herm? Afterall, since he was the reason they didn't do much on O, they must have really turned it around now!

I agree with everything Cochise said on this thread. How in the heck is what TG said "opening up with both barrels"? Dumb.

I don't buy that confidence talk. If they didn't like the play calling, they should have sunk their teeth into this gameplan today.

They are just not good up front and it all starts up front. There's no combination of plays you can call with this QB and this offensive line that is going to equal a win most weeks.

Like someone else said, our linemen can't block one on one. Waters is the only guy on that line who is really someone you want to keep around.

It reminds me of Houston when they first came into the league. No offensive line equals 10 points a game.

Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.

You're observant I didn't even know Sippio was on the field.

They scaled back the O so much that it is way too predictable but that is what Herm wants to do and that is why I have 0 respect for him. He came to KC and said he wants a complete team but he has alienated half the team with his BS

What? No, it does matter. When Sippio is on the field, the only thing we called today were running plays. That's horrible.

When did the Vermeil Chiefs do that? I can't recall to be honest with you. What player?


Oh yeah, he's out there all the time. He loves to block, man! Herm's got him a blocking WR! WOO!

Probably the same place that Herm has taken that Vaunted O we used to have here in KC...

Misery loves company...

According to ESPN, we both suck!
AFC Rankings.
14 Kansas City
15 NY Jets

LJ. He came out of the game all the time when we were going to throw, and everyone knew it.

That's not true. Larry Johnson has pass blocked and caught tons of passes quite often in the past. Horrible example.

We had Sippio when DV and AS was here?

Strange?

But that doesn't make sense. Clearly, once Herm is out of the equation, the offense should be great. Why haven't the Jets turned it around like the Chiefs suddenly would if we had a different coach? It can't be talent, obviously.

I don't think you will get any disagreement on any of that zouk.

My only problem is that either Herm is stupid or incompetent if he thought this O-Line was half way decent. Either way he should be fired for it.

Are you kidding me? Now you don't remember DV pulling LJ out on passing downs???

Yes, that happened. But not all the time.

When Sippio is in the game, they run. 100 percent of the time. He plays wide receiver, but Herm has created a new position for him: Wide Blocker!

There was nobody out there to get, unless you buy into a couple of tweeners that most teams didn't.

If we fired and released everyone as this board wants them to, we'd have a new coach every season and turn the roster over every other year.

That is true gochiefs.

He scaled back the offense because they don't have the talent to run a more complicated offense.

Al Saunders couldn't win with this offensive line.

Stop making logical deductions. It just gets in the way of the Herm-hating fest.

Not to mention, Mangini is the product of Belichick..who is nothing short of an offensive genius. Surely he'd have their O playing better than 14th in the AFC.

The only talent this team is truly, sorely lacking is offensive line play. We have Brodie starting, with Kolby Smith running the ball and TG and D-Bowe playing behind our 2005 line, we're probably in the division lead.

Who said the Jets offense should be great?

All I said is that we are running the same offense Herm has ran his entire head coaching career, I also said that his players are losing faith in his ability to give them the confidence to succeed as a offensive unit. Herm has zero faith in "his" offense and its players.

now Herm needs to realize that TG is prety much all our offense has got, so he'd better work with him to satisfy him.

How many OL did we draft this year = 1 (6th round)
How many OL did we sign in FA = 1

That tells me they weren't concerned except at LT. Obviously we need a center, guard, RT and LT.

So do you have faith in Herm and Carl to turn this team around because I sure don't?

No question that thinking Welbourn and Terry/Turley were okay enough to get through the season as the starting right side was a monumental blunder. There should have been better players there. But it's hard to turn over every position in a single offseason. It'll be dealt with this offseason.

Because if he fixed the O-line, then we would have holes elsewhere, and you'd be bitching about those. Herm inherited a sinking ship. He's plugging the leaks, but it takes time.

So you are saying Mangini is an offensive genius? I dont think I would go that far.. But if you say so...

I agree with your last statement, just sad that Carl and Herm didnt have the foresight to see that 5 30 year old linemen isnt really the way to go right now... Its a pity....

I agree. Tony didn't "open up on Herm with both barrels." He didn't even open up on him with *1* barrel. He just said that this style of football sucks and neither he nor Herm wants to play it.

He is the lone wideout in 1 of the goal line packages they played on 1 snap today. You run out of goal line packages the vast majority of the time. How many snaps did he get on offense today? 2? 3?

And you trust Carl and Herm to actually fix this?

You can add two corners who, when they are another year older, won't be NFL starting caliber either. I don't think we'll be able to effectively replace 7 starters in one off season.

Not to mention: ? at QB, an aging Donnie Edwards, and a 4th OL, starting DT, MLB and two starting S that are all marginal.

Yes, Herm inherited a mess, but his negative attitude on offense, failure to bring in at least marginal talent to the OL, and over-use of LJ last year have made things a whole lot worse than they had to be. He's on the brink of losing the team this year. I think next year will be worse.

Stop that. Logic will get you nowhere.

True and one would hope....

What gets me, is if Carl is such a great GM, letting Roaf and Shields get old with zero replacements, isnt very good player management...