Gretz - It's Been Done Before
 

It's Been Done Before
Sep 26, 2008, 8:46:46 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ

Not much fun being a Chiefs fans these days, is it? What with the franchise record 12-game losing streak, 21 quarters since the Chiefs have held the lead in a game and the fact that a loss this Sunday to Denver would give them a 0-4 start for the first time since 1980.

Funny thing about that 0-4 start some 28 years ago. The Chiefs finished that season 8-8. They were in the third-year of Marv Levy’s rebuilding project, one that began in 1978 with a 4-12 record, followed by 7-9 in the 1979 season.

Strange things happen when a team is rebuilding. There are dark days and seemingly no future. Then one day, a team that couldn’t get out of its way one week, pulls it together and starts winning. It has happened many times before.

I won’t take you back to the ‘80 Chiefs, who started 0-4 because just about every one of their starting offensive linemen was injured for the opening month. No, let’s look at something more recent.

The Tennessee Titans.

In 2003, the Titans were 12-4 and went to New England and lost a game in the playoffs to the Patriots, 17-14. They were a veteran team with guys like Derrick Mason, Steve McNair, Eddie George, Frank Wycheck, Kevin Carter, Jevon Kearse, Samari Role and Albert Haynesworth.

They were a veteran group, an old group and they were in salary cap jail. The Titans had kept many of their own stars with big money deals. They had little room to maneuver in free agency, whether it was keeping their own players that were coming up or signing others.

By the start of the ‘04 season, George, Wycheck and Kearse were gone. By the start of the ‘05 season, they were joined by Mason, Carter and Rolle. By the ‘06 season McNair was gone too. Only Haynesworth remained.

The ‘04 season finished with a 5-11 record. The ‘05 season finished with a final record of 4-12.

At the start of the ‘06 season, the Titans began 0-5. Combined with a 2-9 finish at the end of the ‘05 schedule, at one point they were 2-14, with an eight-game losing streak.

But while the record was going down, the talent level of young players was growing with good drafts in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

That ‘06 season started with a seven-point loss to the New York Jets. Then it was a 33-point defeat on the road to San Diego. Both of those clubs went to the playoffs that year. But in week No. 3, the Titans lost to Miami 13-10, a team that finished 6-10. They were crushed by Dallas at home 45-14, a Cowboys team that finished 9-7. Then it was the fifth straight loss for that ‘06 season, a one-pointer on the road to Indianapolis.

At that point, the Titans were 0-5, and they were averaging 12 points per game, while giving up 27 points per game. They had a rebuilt offense and a defense that had developed several players and sprinkled in with some veteran free agents, like LB David Thornton and DE Kyle Vanden Bosch. None were signed to contracts for big dollars.

It had been a season of tearing down, and then 21 games of rebuilding over two seasons. In that troubled time, the Titans were an ugly 9-28.

The eight-game losing streak ended in week No. 6, with a 25-22 victory on the road in Washington. Over the final 11 weeks of the ‘06 season, the Titans were 8-3.

Then last year, they went 10-6 and made the playoffs. This year they are 3-0.

So they went 9-28, and now they’ve gone 21-9.

It was hard. It was tough. It wasn’t easy. It’s not complete. The Titans have a problem at quarterback with their first-round guy from the ‘06 Draft in Vince Young. But they continue to win with veteran Kerry Collins. That’s because the rest of the team around him is so good and he’s not making the big mistakes that are part of his profile (176 career TD passes against 173 career INTs.)

The Titans didn’t just wake up one morning and suddenly were better. They paid a price. They got younger, they built through the draft and now, they are reaping the profits from their patience.

It’s a model for what the Chiefs are trying to do. It’s also a story that every Chiefs fan should remember during these dark days.

Tennessee has a coach capable of winning with young players.......

Herm doesnt have that abliity. Playing them just so they get experience is one thing. Putting them in positions to succeed is another. Herm doesn't have that abliity.

Tennesse went young because they screwed up their cap management.

Yep. And the Chiefs did because they backed into the rebuild...
Either way - Herm is no Jeff Fisher. Not even close.

Rebuilding requires vision, direction, and a coaching staff capable of getting the most of the young players they draft.

Herman Edwards and his merry bunch of delinquents haven't proven they have any of those qualities.

Lumber and cement mean little when the construction company contracted has no idea on how to build a house. Neither does time.

Either you have the requisite skills or you don't.
If you do, certainly it'll take time to build the project to respectable levels, but it will be evident at some point during the building process that you're competent and capable.

We haven't seen any signs of progress.
This has been a disasterous effort to this point.
And our beloved Head Coach hasn't proven that he has the insight on how to get the project back on track.

wait...year 3 of Herm's rebuild plan? I thought we were at the beginning of year 2. Herm pissed away (forgive the misusage of the Lexicon term 'pissed away') an entire year under the guise that the team had enough talent to 'make a run'...and they sure did. Made a complete and total a$$ of themselves in the playoffs.

So far, in year 2, of the new rebuild plan this team's in complete chaos. I dont see anything that points to improvement.

This story couldn't have been written if Herm and Carl were in Nashville.

Hopefully Clark sees it that way as well. It's a fkn joke.

Interesting that Gretz would choose the Tacks as his model. There are some similarities, to be sure. But, Fisher's also had some incredible distractions during this last rebuild (PacYourSh*tMan, the McNair lockout fiasco, Vince Young, Reese getting canned, etc.). Herm has yet to encounter or deal with those kinds of serious problems.

There's also another important difference ... the fan base, the community, and the local media were all behind Fisher for the most part - as was ownership, of course.

But the main difference is at HC and the staff. Fisher can coach rings around Herm with one hand tied behind his back and a box turtle on his head. Plus, Fisher's staff is better than ours ... I would say much better.

Other than that, yeah.

FAX

**** this shit.

We are in the 3rd year of the rebuild. Every NFL team rebuilds every year. That's what the draft is for. Herm has had 3 f'n drafts. 3! And we get worse every year under Herm. Given how bad we are now, it's apparent that Herm/Carl (and Gunther) are absolutely terrible evaluators of talent AND Herm is an absolutely terrible head coach.

What rebuilding *really* means to the rest of the NFL is that you going to go with a young QB, because that's really the only position that requires a multi-year investment. Nothing excuses a 12-game losing streak with the worst play-calling this side of Pop Warner football.

I bet Gretz masturbates constantly.

While looking at pictures of Carl.

No we are not. Technically this is the 1st year.

and im not even sure if Herm is 100% committed to it (Why is Mcintosh still playing??)


But this whole column is stupid on nearly all levels. Just because other teams did it, means the Chiefs will be successful at it with the current administration?? ROFL

and there is no reason to think we mirror Titans in rebuilding.

Yeah, The Titans were in the superbowl before they had to rebuild. If you look at it that way, the Chiefs have been rebuilding for the last 40 or so years............

We're going to have to dump Herm at some point. Waiting only prolongs the agony. Get a competent coach and get crackin'.

Herm Edwards:

Playoffs: 4 out of 7 years (57%)
Playoff record: 2-3

Jeff Fisher:

Playoffs: 5 out of 13 years (38%)
Playoff record: 5-5

It's all perception. And you cannot convince me Herm has had better talent than Fisher.

if Fisher coached in New York, he would be regarded like Herm is, because they have similar records of accomplishment.

instead, he lost a super bowl once 10 years ago, and people think he's great.

hell Herm could well have lost a super bowl if not for Doug Brien.

Very little separates the two.

You are truly amazing, Mr. Zouk. I've decided that I like you so I'm cancelling the hit.

I know it's difficult to believe. If I hadn't lived in Nashville, I wouldn't believe it either, but I have watched Fisher year after year, season after season, get more out of less than any other coach I've ever seen. For years, they have given him garbage players and he's worked miracles with them. His record is skewed due to factors that have nothing to do with actually playing football and the Tacks just happened to be in a very tough conference.

He's ten times the coach Herm is, Mr. Zouk. I know it's painful to hear and you probably think I'm wrong, or nuts, or some kind of evil wizard, but it's true.

I'm curious, though. How did you feel about the Sloption offensive strategy? Did you think that was an okay deal?

FAX

Rebuilding can be derailed by:

#1: a horrible coaching staff

#2: horrible personnel decisions.


....whoops!!!

I understand your perceptions very well - no need to explain. I'm just telling you the facts.

Jeff Fisher had Steve McNair for 9 years. Herm has had bum shoulder Chad Pennington, a concussed end of the line Trent Green, and Damon Huard. And he's still matched or surpassed his resume. Just the facts.

It also might help Mr. Fax if he actually watched the games, instead of listening to Lenny "Rain Cloud" Dawson every Sunday.

No offense.

Maybe one coach was able to keep his QB's relatively healthy and the other coach runs a reeruned scheme that gets his QB's killed.

I got facts too!! The year before the Tacks left Houston, they were a despised team. No one showed up at their games and they were just biding time waiting to leave the city forever. Then, there was a year when they had no home at all and played in college stadiums in Memphis and Nashville (wherever they could find a place to play). That sucked. The following year, they played in the new stadium. Throughout that time, they practiced anyplace they could find a field (high school fields, college fields, pastures, etc.). They probably practiced in a dozen different locations. Think about it. That's disruptive. And, I promise you, a few seasons like that will negatively affect a peep's win/loss record.

Also, peeps on this board have bashed McNair for years. Now he's so much better than Pennington? I don't wish to argue with you, but really ... temper your loyalty with some ding dang objectivity.

And what about the Sloption? I'm sincerely interested in your views on this deal. If anyone can tell me why it was a justifiable tactic, it's you and I'd love to hear that rationale.

FAX

Yeah, that's right. Steve McNair never got hurt. And where's Vince Young?

LOLORLRLO

My tapes are due any day now. They have been delayed. I've seen some snippets, though. I may be off base, Mr. DaneMcCloud, but only by a few steps, I think.

FAX

I never bashed McNair. He was a good player who you could win with, and Jeff Fisher did just that. Following on that - don't take my posts as bashing Jeff Fisher. I think he is a very good coach and I would defend him heartily if he coached the Chiefs. What is way out of bounds is the perception of Herm, and that is the rationale for my 3 year long crusade.

The sloption - is this the 3 Hagans plays? If so, I really don't see this as a big deal either way. It certainly is not the reason we lost the Raiders game. It's hard for me to see how people could think it was. Miami did very well with a similar series of plays in NE last week.

I have been really clear that Herm has made a terrible mistake this year and that was playing Tyler Thigpen. He thought he could play and he was wrong. I am very relieved that he has chosen to move on.

And the core of Gretz's argument about the Titans is a very good one. People were not singing Jeff Fisher's praises during that period, but because he's a good coach he got that thing back on track. That will happen here too.

Herman Edwards strikes me as a coach who will never win anything meaningful because he's so die-hard about his football philosophies. Even when they fail him miserably.

And I'm honestly not all that confident in his ability to evaluate the QB position. OR...his handling of player personnel.

I think he's a great motivator and solid evaluator of talent (everywhere but QB).

I didn't think you were bashing Fisher, Mr. Zouk. Not at all. My point is simply that a lot of people look at his wins and losses and draw their conclusions from that statistic alone. The facts you presented are a good example of that. What they forget is that he's dealt with a whole lot of unbelievably bizarre distractions over the years ... far more than most coaches ever will ... and unfortunately for him, it adversely affected his record. But, to be perfectly honest, I know him through some charitable activities and I like him personally, so I'm prejudiced.

Your comment about "People were not singing Jeff Fisher's praises during that period ..." is curious, though. Sure, there were some folks who were harping on him, but just so you know, the vast majority of peeps in Nashville were tremendously supportive of him - even during those crazy times. I think it was because they were just so thrilled to have an NFL team moving in. Had he not started winning, though, I'm sure that would have changed.

As for the Sloption ... yes. The Sloption were those plays. No biggie? Well, it's true that it had little impact on the outcome of the game, but that wasn't why I asked. I'm more interested in your thoughts in respect to the decision itself. Did you think that was a game situation that called for the Sloption? Did you think it was a wise tactic? Or, perhaps, you thought it might have come across as a strange and somewhat rash move indicative of desperation.

FAX

The Titans moved to Nashville in 1997. The period Gretz described was 2004-2006.



Desperation is the rational response to having to play an immobile Huard and Tyler Thigpen. I like that package - that's all Chan Gailey. And I do think we're going to see similar plays with Charles lined up as QB soon. Again- check out how well it worked in New England last week. Those plays can be very successful.

Great article by Gretz. He's bang on.

I'm sure this is just a simple matter of miscommunication and not a conscious, intentional attempt on your part to misdirect the discussion in order to score some cheap gotcha points, Mr. Zouk. I refuse to believe that a person of your intellect and integrity would do something like that. Ever.

But, just to be clear. I mentioned the Tacks' move to Nashville in the context of your prior post which included the following statistics ...

Herm Edwards:

Playoffs: 4 out of 7 years (57%)
Playoff record: 2-3

Jeff Fisher:

Playoffs: 5 out of 13 years (38%)
Playoff record: 5-5

Surely we're on the same page, now. Gretz can talk about whatever he wishes. You, on the other hand, were making the argument that Herm's record compares favorably to Fishers' and you included Fisher's 13 years of tenure in order to make your point. I was simply pointing out (as I've already stated) that Fisher's w/l record should be viewed in light of the many issues he had to fight through while acquiring said record. Just so we're clear.

FAX

The period I was talking about in the first line was 2004-2006.

Okay ... let's see here ... first, it's 3 years of rebuild, then it's 13 years of record, then it's 3 years of rebuild again. With all respect, Mr. Zouk, this is getting confusing.

I tell you what, let's just pick one, single year we can both agree on and work from there. I'll start ... 1867.

FAX

How does Carls D*ck taste?

You know guys, I really resent the notion that I'm trying in some way to please the Chiefs by being positive. I'm not. The Chiefs don't give me anything in return. So please stop.

so the point of this is that Gretz thinks we should give Carl 2 more years to show signs of improvement?

Dude - you said you thought I was wrong about people being down on Jeff Fisher during "that period" because they were excited the Titans were new to the city. But "that period" I was referring to was almost 10 years after that. And all of that had nothing to do with comparisons to Herm.

When I compared the records I used their entire tenures as coach.

This is not as tricky as you're pretending it is.

Ha! You're not going to fool me with all that "this is not tricky" stuff, Mr. Zouk. I wasn't born yesterday in a barn or someplace. Who do you think you're dealing with, Mr. Skip Towne?

FAX

How does Herm's dick taste?

You gotta watch that FAX guy. He's tricky.

If Nick couldn't get press credentials, WPI would be frequented by about 10 people.

Since he can, you have something to gain by licking the taint of the Chiefs.

You have everything to gain. Without this gig, what are you going to do? Move out of the basement and work in fast food?

OK i believe you. ROFL


Why dont you try and be more honest with your readers?? Chiefs fans are not stupid.

I give my honest opinion.

Sometimes that opinion is negative.

ROFL

Well then your either naive or just an ignornant dipsh*t ?

Gretz, it might have been done before, but never by Carl or Herm...

Neither are quaified to build a toy doll house, let alone an NFL Team...

Please tell me how you can spin a huge loss to a bad team like the Falcons into something positive and then have the balls to say that you give an honest opinion?

Just because the Chiefs ran the ball when they were down big, doesn't mean jack shit.

I say it does.

I say you know ****ing dick about football.

I wonder what it would take for Gretz to admit the Chiefs stink.

It's like the RWNJ's who still think Bush is a good President.

He's already admitted the Chiefs stink. Perhaps not in those words, but you won't find anyone in the media who hasn't come to terms with the fact the Chiefs are a terrible, terrible football team.

Why cant anyone but Whitlock admit this:

Carl, Herm, Curl, Gun, Gailey and cronies are not the team that will ever get the job done

????

As interesting as this arg... er, debate has been, I don't really understand WHY you're arguing with each other. Gretz here seems to have jumped to a seriously WRONG conclusion - that the TITANS are the model of what Chiefs Fans want the Chiefs to be.

I thought you guys wanted to WIN some championships. Was I horribly misled?

Whitlock is 100 percent behind Herm.

He is??

Then why was he lobbying for Cowher in his 10 Truths column??

That was only if Herm was fired. Whitlock has been behind Herm since the day he was hired and hasn't wavered in that position.

I call Bush*t.

I think hes probably like most of us. He was behind the hire and has soured.

I myself was a Herm supporter at first. Now, i think hes just setting things up for next years coach.

Gretz should just stop. What a stupid, lame, pointless article.

He compares our rebuilding to the Chiefs of the late 70s, completely glossing over the fact that the Chiefs of the entire 80s SUCKED. Then he switches gears to another team? What the hell is that? What kind of shit is this? What are we supposed to take away from this - that by rebuilding we'll suck for another decade while a team in another state that none of us care about goes on to lose a super bowl and then flounder for a few years? Christ.

I assume this poor bastard's under contract to write a certain number of positive spin puff pieces per week, but damn, this is just embarrassing.

Just take the zero, Gretz.

:shake:

If that's his true opinion he's never openly discussed it.

Sounds like he thinks herm should not be here next season.

You know the difference in the Titans and Chiefs........Keith Bulluck and Derrick Johnson that should explain each organizations ability to develop players.

But Gunther developed Bullock!

Ask him; He'll tell you.

I'm not interested in becoming the Titan's. This version of the Titans (spanning several seasons into the future) isn't on an arc that is going end with a Lombardi.

Did you honestly think the Giants were going to a Super Bowl with Eli Manning?

And that is another good point, I have 0 desire to be the Titans.

I never considered Eli a bust. Still thought he could develop. And I knew if that happened, they'd definitely get their shots. Did I think it would happen last year, no. But by the time the SB was here, I thought they could win one within the next few years.

Eli has always been a more accomplished pocket passer than Young.

Fisher never wanted Young.

Hopefully next year we'll see Syracuse's QB's getting beaten to a pulp and Herm standing stoically on the sideline in his new head coaching gig.

Yeah but he was still pretty average. Sometimes, downright horrible. The Giants were a team in the Herm mold last season.

If only we had their O-line, QB, defense and coaches.

I wish Dylan was on tonight. She could tell us how Giants fans all thought Coughlin was a giant reerun last year and prior.

I remember that. Most everyone thought Coughlin was on his way out after 06.

Again, you should how little you know about the game of football.

The Giants offense was very, very unpredictable. They used a power running game with Jacobs, flashed in Bradshaw. They had Burress stretching the field every chance he got.

Defensively, they applied more pressure than any defense I've seen since the Ravens.

Herm Edwards would have ran Jacobs up the centers ass 20 times and called on Jeff Feagles to help him win the game.

A guy told me once that the KC teams of the mid to late 90s didn't have as much talent as the team that was in town.
both teams went to the playoffs that year. the team with less talent went further.

I'm proud to say that some of us wee never behind the hire. When I see $hit, I sure don't have to step in it to know what it is.

Only because he is raciest. I would rather have Whitlock coaching this team, than Herm.