Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 5229275)

From a poster on the Arrowhead pride website:


Here are the results, and they are DISGUSTING. Even from the beginning of the Vermeil and Herm eras, the Defense has not been ignored:

Of the Picks Not Traded Since the 2001 Draft

1st Round: 4 of 6 have been on Defense (67%)

2nd Round: 6 of 6 have been on Defense (100%...100 freaking percent!)

3rd Round: 5 of 9 have been on Defense (56%)

71% of of every 1st through 3rd round draft pick in the last 8 years has been on Defense.

By Position:

DT = 6 (7 if you count McBride)

DE = 2 counting McBride as a DE

LB = 3

S = 2

CB = 2

By Year (with names):

2001 = 1st - No First pick. 2nd - No Second pick. 3rd - Defense, Eric Downing DT. 3rd - Offense.

2002 = 1st - Defense, Ryan Sims DT. 2nd - Defense, Eddie Freeman DT. 3rd - No Third pick.

2003 = 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Kawika Mitchell LB. 3rd - Defense, Julian Battle CB.

2004 = 1st - No First pick. 2nd - Defense, Junior Siavii DT. 2nd - Offense. 3rd - Defense, Keyaron Fox LB.

2005 = 1st - Defense, Derrick Johnson LB. 2nd - No 2nd pick. 3rd - Special Teams.

2006 = 1st - Defense, Tamba Hali DE. 2nd - Defense, Bernard Pollard S. 3rd - Offense.

2007 = 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Turk McBride DT/DE. 3rd - Defense, Tank Tyler DT.

2008 = 1st - Defense, Glenn Dorsey DT. 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Brandon Flowers CB. 3rd - Offense. 3rd - Offense. 3rd - Defense, DaJuan Morgan S.

I really feel sick looking at all of this over the last 8 years, and we still have the 32nd ranked Defense. Blame Vermeil...blame Herm, but there has only been 1 person in charge over that entire 8 year period.

[u] Those are 15 first day Defensive players. Even if we whiffed on 4 of them, that is still an ENTIRE starting defensive team in their prime. Add to that FA's in that period like Ty Law, Pat Surtain, Napolean Harris, Donnie Edwards, Demorrio Williams, Alphonso Boone...and keep in mind Jared Allen, Jarrad Page, and Brandon Carr were second day picks and don't factor into this scenario.

Our Defense is, and has been, so horrendously broken it almost defies blame...but it doesn't. It is inexcusable.

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 (Post 5229301)

Yep. Sad

and to think there are some people that want Peterson to stay???

Originally Posted by Basileus777 (Post 5229317)

It's a combination of bad drafting/scouting and bad coaches who can't develop talent.

It's ****ing pathetic.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 5229275)

2001 = 1st - No First pick. 2nd - No Second pick. 3rd - Defense, Eric Downing DT. 3rd - Offense.

2002 = 1st - Defense, Ryan Sims DT. 2nd - Defense, Eddie Freeman DT. 3rd - No Third pick.

2003 = 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Kawika Mitchell LB. 3rd - Defense, Julian Battle CB.

2004 = 1st - No First pick. 2nd - Defense, Junior Siavii DT. 2nd - Offense. 3rd - Defense, Keyaron Fox LB.

Originally Posted by ChiefGator (Post 5229370)

Those are the really bad years. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful (Post 5229443)

We all want to blame Carl and DV for the bad years and rightly so, but I also applaud Carl for the changes made resulting in what appears to be a rebuilding effort moving in the right direction.

Originally Posted by yeti (Post 5229389)

but after that things start to look at least a little better. so maybe those years of draft suckage might have set us only back 2 years in the 5 year plan right?

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 5229476)

Not quite so fast there ace.

Just because they are starting on a team thats lost 17 out of their last 18 games doesn't nessesarily make them good picks or decent NFL players.

Originally Posted by talastan (Post 5229495)

Yes the sad thing is that out of the 20 years of the "5 year plan" that is 8 years real time. :shake:

There are a couple of things that are constant in these stats. The fact that Gun and Carl are both there. I love Gun and his fire but the truth is I'm wondering if he still is up to the task of coaching his players. You can yell, spit, :cuss:, and motivate them all you want but with this young team these coaches have to be actually TEACHING them something.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 5229278)

That is sad.Sad.Sad.:shake:

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful (Post 5229548)

I think we have a lot of fans who were not prepared for what rebuilding really meant.

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful (Post 5229548)

Why do so many conclude that the coaches are failing to teach because of the record? These rookies are getting better even fans on CP, the ones who think they know more than they actually do, can see it through the television, which tells me the coaches are doing their job.

I think we have a lot of fans who were not prepared for what rebuilding really meant.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 5229553)

This is true. The real problem with most people is the unpopularity of Herman Edwards. If this were some young wunderkind coach that everybody was on board with, you wouldn't hear this much bitching.

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful (Post 5229548)

I think we have a lot of fans who were not prepared for what rebuilding really meant.

Originally Posted by talastan (Post 5229495)

Yes the sad thing is that out of the 20 years of the "5 year plan" that is 8 years real time. :shake:

There are a couple of things that are constant in these stats. The fact that Gun and Carl are both there. I love Gun and his fire but the truth is I'm wondering if he still is up to the task of coaching his players. You can yell, spit, :cuss:, and motivate them all you want but with this young team these coaches have to be actually TEACHING them something.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 5229586)

I didn't tell you to wait until year three to build this team around you.

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2 (Post 5229696)

Herm didn't wait three years to rebuild. He tried building his own defense and special teams from the beginning.

Originally Posted by FringeNC (Post 5229706)

Thank you. You only call it "rebuilding" when you have a bad record.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58 (Post 5229720)

What Miami has done is not rebuilding. You could call it reloading, I guess. They'll be decent this year, maybe next.

But unless they draft extremely well over the next 3-5 years to replace all the aging veterans they signed in FA this offseason, (at what happen to be very important positions) then they'll be right back in the shithouse with a 4-12 record.

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2 (Post 5229749)

How are the Dolphins not rebuilding? Their OL is very young and they already have replacement players in line on the DL for NT and RDE.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58 (Post 5229794)

Do you think that Miami is set up to win consistently for the next 5-8 years, like the Colts?

I don't.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58 (Post 5229720)

IMO, rebuilding has nothing to do with the record.

It's the process of making your team younger, and hopefully better for the long term in the process.

In theory, if you bring in/draft the right players during a rebuilding process, your team should be good for a significant amount of time. We're talking 5-8 years. A team of 22 year old players should grow and mature as players along the same timeframe, putting them all in their prime at the same time. Almost by definition, you can't call a rebuild a success or failure for several years. See Green Bay, Tennessee. In our case, incompetent coaching will probably slow that process down considerably.

What Miami has done is not rebuilding. You could call it reloading, I guess. They'll be decent this year, maybe next.

But unless they draft extremely well over the next 3-5 years to replace all the aging veterans they signed in FA this offseason, (at what happen to be very important positions) then they'll be right back in the shithouse with a 4-12 record.

The Jets are the same way. When players like Favre, Faneca and Jenkins retire, or are become ineffective to to age, they'll be in a world of hurt unless they draft extremely well and have replacements on hand for those vets.

Originally Posted by FringeNC (Post 5229859)

So by the Jets signing aging veterans, how does this preclude them from winning in the future -- in order words, what young players did they cut from the roster who will be good in the future?

Originally Posted by FringeNC (Post 5229706)

Thank you. You only call it "rebuilding" when you have a bad record.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58 (Post 5229905)

Who said anything about cutting young players?

I said they've put themselves in a position that they have to draft exceptionally to win in the future. (3-5 years down the road, and beyond)

As players age, their productivity declines.

They went out an spent a ton of money to win NOW, future be damned.

Unless they strike gold in the draft over the next 2 years and find replacements for these aging players (which all happen to be at key positions) then they're screwed.

The average age of the offense is 30 years old. Every impact player they have is over 30. (Favre, Jones, Coles, Woody, Faneca, etc)

They have youth at two positions, center and left tackle.

They are in better shape on the defensive side of the ball averaging 27 years old. All of their age is in the front 7, all of those guys are in that 30 YO range - which is the beginning of the slide, in a lot of cases.

Where they are really strong/young is in the backfield.

IMO, the Jets are going to end up right where Vermeil's Chiefs did - they'll all "get old" and have their skills diminish around the same time. If they draft like we did, they'll fall of the face of the map - just like we did.

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful (Post 5230094)

Obviously you do not agree with the approach they decided to take at the end of last season, but it is a proven approach. The most recent examples are Tennessee and Packers and nobody can forget how Jimmy Johnson did it in Dallas.

On the other extreme you have the George Allen approach of sell the future for now. The Jets are the most recent example of that approach.

Parcells and Cowher have been very successful treading the middle, which few can do. Most end up like Shannanrat with mediocrity year in and year out.

The Chiefs were so completely bankrupt of talent at the end of DV's tenure I don't think they had a choice. They tried to get younger and more talented without rebuilding, but the whole thing just fell apart last year.