Lilja & Wiegmann: More Questions Than Answers
 

http://kan.scout.com/2/955591.html

Think back a few weeks, to a point before free agency started. Can you imagine someone telling you that the Chiefs would be able to land a recent Pro Bowl center and a 28-year-old guard who played in two of the last four Super Bowls? And that they would do it before St. Patrick’s Day?

How would you have reacted? With excitement? Jubilation? The thought of such major upgrades finally being made to KC’s offensive line would have thrilled just about any Chiefs fan.

As we all know, those additions have actually happened in the form of two ex-Chiefs who’ve returned to Kansas City. One of them – Casey Wiegmann – was a starter here from 2001-2007. The other – Ryan Lilja – was originally a Chief during the summer of his rookie season before he was cut and claimed off waivers by the Indianapolis Colts.

Instead of providing us with some certainty about the offensive line, though, these new signings have actually left us here at Warpaint Illustrated with more questions than answers about where the line is headed.

Casey Wiegmann

Perhaps the most unusual thing about Wiegmann’s return to the Chiefs is that the team chose to bring in a veteran center over 35 and it wasn’t former Tennessee Titan Kevin Mawae.

It’s been obvious over the last year that Scott Pioli and Todd Haley put a premium on players they have prior experience with. Wiegmann has strong ties to the Chiefs’ franchise, but he has no history with the new regime. On the other hand, Pioli and Haley, plus numerous other members of the Chiefs’ staff, were with the New York Jets in 1998 when Mawae began his eight-year stay there.

Like Wiegmann, Mawae is a smaller center, adept at pulling and zone blocking. He’s about a year and a half older than Wiegmann, but the fact that he’s coming off two straight Pro Bowls suggests his tank isn’t empty quite yet. If the Chiefs wanted to sign an aging center, Mawae seemed like a perfect fit.

So what made the team sign Wiegmann instead? That answer may shed some light on what the team has in mind for him.

The decision could have come down to money, of course. Perhaps Mawae was asking for more than the Chiefs wanted to pay a player of his age. On the other hand, Mawae’s agent has made no secret of the fact that his client is looking for a starting job. Maybe that’s what took the Chiefs out of the running.

In other words, maybe the team wasn’t looking to sign a new starter. With backup center Wade Smith leaving for Houston in free agency, perhaps the Chiefs were simply looking to add some depth.

Many have already penciled Wiegmann into the starting lineup, but we have to consider the possibility that starting Wiegmann over Rudy Niswanger might not actually be in the team’s plans. <table align="right" cellspacing="7" width="220"><tbody><tr><td>http://media.scout.com/media/image/79/790650.jpg
Why didn't the Chiefs sign Kevin Mawae?
Getty </td></tr></tbody></table> But let’s assume they do plan to start him. In that case, Wiegmann would presumably line up between Lilja and Brian Waters. That means two-thirds of the Chiefs’ interior line would weigh less than 300 pounds.

Does the team really plan to go that small? Couldn’t that pose a problem on the goal line and in short-yardage situations?

The Patriots, with Logan Mankins, Dan Koppen, and Stephen Neal, don’t have an interior that small. The Cardinals, with Reggie Wells, Deuce Lutui, and Lyle Sendlein, have a considerable amount of beef in the middle. If the Chiefs do plan to line up such a slim interior, it would be a departure from the norm for both Pioli and Haley.

Then there’s the upcoming draft, which is another factor to keep in mind. It’s been far too long since the Chiefs addressed the center position by drafting a young player. Given his obvious connection to Charlie Weis, there has been speculation around Notre Dame center Eric Olsen, but by no means is he the only prospect worth looking at.

If the Chiefs draft a center this year, it’s hard to imagine them keeping three. So who becomes the odd man out? If the idea is to groom a young player, then having a veteran like Wiegmann around makes sense.

But what happens with Niswanger? Would the team pull their RFA tender, making him a free agent? Would they move him back to guard, where he saw his first action with the Chiefs?

There are plenty of questions, but few answers.


Ryan Lilja

As a member of the Colts, Lilja lined up at left guard. In Kansas City, Brian Waters has that spot occupied. Will the Chiefs simply move Lilja to the right side of the line? That obviously seems like the easiest solution, but we can’t ignore that Waters has been the subject of trade rumors since his unpleasant meeting with Chiefs’ brass last year.

How does Lilja’s arrival impact Branden Albert? If Lilja and Waters are entrenched at guard, then it casts doubt on the mainstream theory that has the Chiefs drafting a left tackle with their first-round pick. After all, unless you put stock into the strange reports about a possible move to right tackle, Albert would then have nowhere to move.

However, the biggest questions aren’t about Lilja’s position – they’re about his health.

According to a Tweet from Scout.com’s own Adam Caplan, Lilja was cut by the Colts after failing a physical. For a player who missed the entire 2008 season because of three surgeries on his knee, that’s no small detail.

However, it’s fair to say that some have been skeptical of that report. They point to the fact that Lilja started 21 games for the Colts last year – two in the preseason, all 16 games of the regular season, and Indy’s three postseason contests. Only once in that span did Lilja appear on the Colts’ injury report, when he was listed as probable for the Super Bowl with a sore back.

Then there’s the fact that Lilja presumably passed his physical with the Chiefs. He was also in good enough shape for the team to give him a three-year contract, rather than the one-year deals signed by Wiegmann, Mike Vrabel, Shaun Smith, and others.

But that takes us back to the Colts’ decision to release Lilja in the first place. It’s been widely reported that Indy plans to utilize larger offensive linemen now that longtime line coach Howard Mudd has retired. But would that alone prompt them to release one of their starters? Particularly when, according to many Colts fans, there doesn’t seem to be an obvious replacement for Lilja?

As one of the league’s best-run franchises, the Colts aren’t in the habit of making foolish personnel decisions. Knowing that, logic would suggest some additional factors behind Lilja’s release, apart from their shift in philosophy. They paid Lilja a scheduled roster bonus before releasing him, so financial reasons don’t seem to apply. Injury concerns are one of the only reasons that make sense.

We’ve already covered the size issue, but if Lilja’s injuries have in any way limited his ability, it only exacerbates those concerns. More information on his health status will surely come out, but once again, it’s a situation where the questions outnumber the answers.

Until we get a better idea of the Chiefs’ plans, it may be awhile before we can discuss the offensive line with any certainty. In fact, when it comes to these new additions, it seems like the only thing we know for sure is that we don’t know anything for sure.

entire offensive line is still just a big question ... every position.

:banghead:

we will the SB next year. **** you all

oh no we suck again...

So the failed physical rumor originated with scout.com twitter? Without any corroborating reports?...

Adam Caplan breaks a lot of NFL news.

And don't be surprised if Lilja's physical issues are a lot more serious than anyone anticipated...

You think the Dr's who gave him the physical might be able to determine this?

Remember when Kendrell Bell "passed" the Chiefs' physical.... :rolleyes:

Lets hold on to every FA failure or mistake this organization has made the last 20 years because all the same people are still involved. Oh wait they aren't. K.Bell has nothing to do with Ryan Lilja. Nothing.

The issue is simply this, as a Chief's fan it is impossible to expect that because we signed a good player cut by another team that we could actually have success with them.

As stated in the article there is nothing to support the health issue. 21 consecutive games played, nothing on the injury report.

Lets get past the impending doom complex for once. I believe Hamas used Achem's Razor in an argument in another post.

Usually the simplest explanation is the preferred one. They said they wanted to go bigger on OL. Why can't it be that simple?

While the line has plenty of questions, Wiegmann and Lilja are upgrades over what we have and they can last at least a year.

At least you don't walk into the draft in dire need of a Center or Guard. Now you have 2 offseasons to address it with people you want, instead of signing a subpar veteran or drafting a need-based Free Agent. Not to mention that the next free agent class is going to be very rich with talent.

I don't know why these signings force more questions. All it says is that they're going to build stopgaps until they find someone that can do it better within the next 1-2 years.

People assumed that Mike Goff would be an upgrade as well, and we know how that turned out.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Lilja will be a complete bum like Goff was.

But Ash makes a good point - we really don't know what we're going to get out of either Lilja or Weigmann. To assume they are upgrades at this point is foolish - and you'd think this fanbase has learned their lesson regarding supposed "upgrades."

Mike Goff, Mike Brown, Mike Vrabel and Clancy Pendergast approved this message.

So the article expresses concerns over Wiegmann's age and weight. It also acts as a proponent for signing Mawae. I'm not sure I really follow the logic here.

I would think that when people take off their homer goggles, they see that Mawae is a better center than Casey at this point in their careers.

The point being, that if you're going to sign an older, veteran stopgap, why not sign (or attempt to sign) the more talented of the two?

Maybe I'm a homer, but I don't think that there's enough difference between the two to say that one would be materially better nor worse than the other. Mawae is older and will earn more. I'll take Wiegmann, but I think you're pretty much talking about two guys who are too similar to really take a strong opinion either way.

You're a homer.

If I were post a poll at another teams board that had no affiliation with KC, Denver or Tennessee and asked who is the better center, I'd be flat-out shocked if Weigmann took 30% of the votes.

JMO

No doubt Mawae has had the better career. At this point the question is whether Mawae is actually that much better or is the significant difference in reputation based on past history more than current talent level.

I really don't know. I am not confident that at this point in their careers there is a huge gap in talent level. Reputation yes, actual talent?

This will be the second time I know of that Wiegman lost his job to a power run game. When Priest was here he enjoyed a sweep or perimeter run game where the oline pulled. When PH left and LJ was the starter we soon went to the power run game and Casey wasn't built for it. He had a bad season because of it. So he was let go. Not because he was done. He goes to Denver who runs a zone scheme and immediately goes to the probowl. After Shanny leaves, the Donks get away from the zone scheme, Casey has a bad season. Out the door he goes for the second time.

Hopefully, there's a little left in the tank. Centers last a long time, but he is 37, right? A 1 year contract will tell the story. But the answer is, we are moving back to a more diverse running attack. I welcome it.

As for Lilja. .If the Colts are going bigger, then he should be let go. That's the answer. If you are at the end of your contract, and you dont fit the scheme, you get let go. If he passed a physical for us, and played every game last season, then the question is, who said he failed a physical. I remember Turley passing a physical though, that he probably had no business passing. Either way, we aren't on the hook for much on the deal and he stands to help us over what we have. Even if he's no better than mediocre.

The question is, will these guys help this team get better?

The answer is, it's a break even or win proposition. I'll take that every time.

Mawae is currently a better player. But did you also factor in that he's 2.5 years older and might have been a tougher sell to bring into the city of Kansas City? Wiegmann's old. But Mawae is 39. That's scary.

If it's for one year, what's the difference?

Give me the better player.

Now, KC being a tough sell I agree with completely. But it doesn't appear that they even attempted to bring him in.

I think the point being it's not like we're talking like two players on completely different talent levels. We're talking about a better player who is going to turn 40 by the end of the season, vs. a slightly younger player who isn't a ton worse than the other guy.

If Mawae is better, it's not by a whole ton, when you factor in age. I think it's just making a mountain out of a mohill.

Bell wasn't lousy because he failed a physical. He was lousy because he wasn't very good outside of Pittsburgh.

Gunther trying to turn a bullrushing 3-4 LB into a versatile 4-3 LB reeks of fail.

What's a mohill?

Unfortunately, that's where we are right now. What does it say about your franchise when people are debating whether we should have signed the 37 year old center or the 39 year old center?

Yeah, calling BS.

He couldn't even raise his hands over his shoulders.

They are in the southeast part of the state.

Which state?

Is it anything like the town in Ireland?

It definitely doesn't say a lot. But I think it does say a lot when people are using this as a basis to complain.

I'm more upset about passing on Dansby, Rolle, and maybe Walter. I can understand getting mad about not signing long-term options. But these guys are clearly brought in to be stopgaps.

You may want to ask MoHillbilly.

Oh hell.

"Mo"hill.

I get it now.

I'm a dumbass.


:banghead:

Hopefully both will improve us ...

Signing Goff wasn't the problem. That was a mistake (and granted, they should have caught it). I was never a huge fan of the Lilja signing. And I'm not ecstatic about the Wiegmann signing. But I like both signings if they are stopgaps.

What made the Goff signing a disaster was that they walked into the draft thinking that that position was set.

I'm hoping that both of these signings are a sign that the Chiefs are going to be very aggressive in the next two offseasons about bringing in solid competition on the offensive line. I think they know the clock is ticking on Waters and Wiegmann. And maybe the clock has run out as soon as this season. I'm thinking they draft a Center and maybe they do a bigger sniff test on Harris, Niswanger, Brown, and Ndukwe to see if any of those guys could be better.

And the best news is that Weis will be doing those evaluations, so I trust that he'll make the right call.

FTR, I'm not complaining at all. I just would have gone a different route.

I hope that Casey can get the job done until we can get some young blood into the spot.

This.

some people just like to bitch, weigman is too old, lets sign mawae. i actually think people look for any reason to cry about anything that might be positive and try to kill ANY optimism that some of us have about this team
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Maybe Pioli just has a fetish for guys named Mike.




Mike is a weird ass looking name by the way.

Mawae has had it. He's done.

Thats why.

Wiegmann is done. Age doesn't take its toll gradually it's more like falling off a cliff. Casey fell off the cliff last year.

2009
http://profootballfocus.com/by_posit...=25&numgames=1

2008
http://profootballfocus.com/by_posit...=25&numgames=1

2007
http://profootballfocus.com/by_posit...=25&numgames=1

Wiegmann was still a good football player for this team in 2007 despite any common myths that he didn't "fit Herms system." We probably shouldn't have let him go at that point, but now it's really too late to right that wrong.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You've had decades to adjust.

I'm pretty sure that "adjusting" isn't one of my best attributes.

Whoa, he gave up a crap ton of pressures.

Scheme won't hide that.

Kendrell Bell didn't play for the Chiefs before. Anyone thats played and came back is a great signing.

There's truth in that.

I think we, even the most cynical among us, will have that reaction to certain players, players that were among our favorites.

For sure. Alot of people don't pay attention to the offensive line like you do Milkman. When the average fan hears we signed Lilja and Weigmann they think back to the greatest show on grass days. I will assure you neither player will play to that level again.

Yea and we didn't have trouble running the ball with Charles it was the # of sacks and pressures. Some of it was Cassel some of it was the line and Weigmann will not help in pass protection.

Well when he's asked to play in a powerblocking scheme and block NTs straight up, of course he'll give up more pressures.

So our other two choices would have been Fraley and Mawae. Mawae had only 1 less qb pressure than Weigmann. Fraley had 6 the whole year, but he only started 4 games.

I've pretty much stayed away from the Lilja/Weigman debates.

I actually agree with both sides of the arguments.

Lilja showed no ill effects from the knee surgeries, and in spite of the arguments that the Colts were a poor run blocking team, he was, as has been discussed, the best run blocker on that line.

He still has the mobility to get out in front when pulling and on screens.

Weigman also still has that mobility, as well.

Lilja is also an effective, albeit not dominating pass protector.
Yes, Manning decision making and quick passes did help, but it wasn't all strictly due to Manning.

The pass protection that Weigman provided, however, was lacking to say the least.

He's going to need help, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Lilja and Weigman double up substantially.

But at the end of the day, I still think there's a good chance that Brown and a drafted center are starters by season's end, making both Lilja and Weigman solid depth, which makes them good free agent additions.

I also wonder if Lilja moves back to LG after this season and Waters retires. It will definitely be interesting. But I think the Lilja move makes it likely that Center is their absolute #1 line priority.

Yeah, Weigmann will have to have help from Waters and Lilja, but I don't think he'll struggle as much as others have said he would. Him, Lilja, and Albert pulling and getting out in the open field for Charles will be nice to see though.

All I know is Wiegmann or whomever is at center is better than Niswanger. I hope to God we draft a Center and groom the kid to either start very early or back-up Wiegmann. That is why I'm not bothered by signing Wiegmann to a one year deal. I'd much rather take my chances on a old Wiegmann then a younger player that has proven to be a major FAIL in Niswanger. Put Niswanger at G as a back-up and pray that he can actually play. If Wiegmann fails, so freaking what, it would be no different than Niswanger, so it would be a push at worst.

As for Lilja, regardless of his reasons for exiting Indy, again is he better than what we have at LG? Heck yea he is better than anything we have there so why cry about it? Lets just hope he actually has plenty left in the tank and it was more a scheme issue than anything.

Aww to be a Chiefs fan or to be the one that covers them... most everyone wants to sh*t on every single move. Screw positives!

I don't think the article was actually saying "We should have signed Mawae". It's just saying that if they're gonna go out and get an old center, Mawae seemed like the more logical choice because of his connection to the front office.

So that raises the question of why they picked Casey, which is then explored. I think he's gonna start, but it's a good point that maybe they didn't promise him anything like they probably would have had to with Mawae.

I fully disagree.

I'm not sure he's better than Darryl Harris at this stage in his career, let alone Brian Waters.

Waters had a bad season in 2009 but I'd take him over Lilja.

And who's crying? This is a discussion forum. That's what we're all doing.

Discussing.

What about some of the guys we've been drafting in recent years? Guys like Richardson and Taylor and Magee and Brown? Can they even play, or what? If not, why the hell are they on the team? If they can play, why aren't they?

These are some damned questions.

FAX

magee is a 5 tech
taylor is gone
brown was on i r
richardson is still here
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Forgot about Herb. He went to the Texans or somewhere, right?

I guess I just don't understand why we've been drafting OL and, with the exception of Albert, aren't getting anything out of those picks.

FAX

i wonder too faxy, i thought you had all the answers
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ROFL

Hardly. I'm a seeker.

FAX

McGee could still very well end up being a very good pick. He was only a rookie and 5-Tech at that.

I do agree some of our drafting with OL have been head scratchers as of late, but the only OL that Pioli has drafted is Brown. Brown was a rookie on the IR. He still has time to prove himself and grow as a player. He wasn't brought in to be immediate help it seems, but a hopefully starter a couple years down the line.

Because instead of drafting offensive lineman to become immediate starters, they've been drafting late round prospects like Samson, Svitek, Richardson, etc., hoping they somehow develop into quality starter.

Richardson's the only guy with the pedigree to actually become a solid starter.

The rest have been a complete and utter joke.

First a foremost I see these signings as insight that we will more likely draft O-line. Just as we did (and still currently in the process of) with Vrabel they value having a veteran presence in the mix with young guys to teach them how it's done. What better way than with Wiegmann? You can't argue the fact that if you had to have someone teach young guys, Vrabel and Wiegmann would be at the top of your list.
I think the main question at hand with these signings is how did we manage to sign veteran players (who always want a ring before money) when we won a whole 8 games in the last 3 years? Why would Jones come to KC to make less than he would with the Jets?
The answer is Pioli. Which is a bright sign for the future of our team. Of all the people scheduled to visit KC we have signed ALL, while at face value. Except for the one that didn't make it though the front door. Pioli is a hustler. These signing show much more depth than the surface reveals. I love the signings even if they aren't what they used to be.
Just for the record, Wiegmann deserves to retire a Chief, just like Gonzo does. I'd sign Gonzo at 38 just to allow him to retire a Chief.

The only thing these signings indiacate is that Pioli finally got a ****ing clue and realized the roster was absolute shit, and he didn't have enough draft picks to fill all the holes.

If Lilja is at RG he is going to get raped by the NT's.