Pioli offers an excuse
 

Pioli will bring Chiefs back to life

http://www.projo.com/sports/jimdonal...3.37be5c8.html

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I get it! Pioli turns red Kool-Aid into gold!

I don't necessarily agree.

Pete Carroll did not have a system that was anywhere near "up and running". He was a joke, and his players knew it.

However, NE did have a lot of pieces left over from the previous system: McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Troy Brown, Ted Johnson, etc.

I think this is my favorite part:

It's pretty clear that he's married to the idea of his system. From an ideological standpoint, I understand. However, Pioli needs to be intellectually flexible enough to realize that as the dynamics of the game change, his system needs to change in order to maximize returns.

You can't assume that one approach to treating players or one defensive scheme is axiomatically better than another. It's dependent upon a multitude of factors.

You could have just said "Pioli is dumb."

Pioli is the ****ing WIN

Brought in guys he is familiar with?

PHEW! I was worried it was Belichick. Now we know.

I don't know if he's dumb. I think he's rigid to the point of making stupid decisions. Time will tell if he learns.

Like a bunch of 4-3 guys playing 3-4?

Drain, rinse, and don't repeat.

Yep and they inheirted a lot better team than what we have here.

I just don't see an excuse by Pioli. What he says about KC is absolutely true.

I can't argue with what he says here.

At this point, I'm ambivalent about this offseason. The Chiefs spent wisely on their outside FA acquisitions, even if I believe they overpaid to retain a lot of poor players. I'm glad they didn't overpay for a guy like Dansby, who isn't a good run defender, and although I liked Dwan Edwards as a 5 tech, he's not worth anywhere near 4.5 million a year.

This FA market is flat reeruned.

Ultimately, the success or failure of this regime will depend on the draft. They failed miserably in year one. If this draft is filled with reaches and poor value, then that is a much worse indicator than not signing Dansby, Dunta Robinson, Antrel Rolle, etc.

15 of Pioli's 22 starters in the 2001 Super Bowl were not in New England when he arrived.

Well, kind of.

I mean, let's be honest:

He did inherit a team with a young LT with all the upside in the world, a game breaking RB, a player who looked like a #1 WR, a future pro bowl CB, one of the best DT prospects of the decade, the greatest TE of all time, and the 3rd and 34th overall picks.

Now, if you look at what those assets were spun into, it's pretty underwhelming.

They were 9-7 and 8-8 the 2 years prior to BB\Pioli taking over. Compare that with the Chiefs 4-12 and 2-14 record.

Oh, and BB and Pioli's first season in NE was 5-11. I'm not saying that the Chiefs will win the Super Bowl this year, or even be within a year of the Pats second year W/L record..... but, the Chiefs are pretty close to where the Pats were going into their second year.

And yet the roster still had to be turned over.

Just like it does in Kansas City.

In fact, here are the seven starters Pioli inherited in Kansas City:

Charles, Flowers, Carr, Waters, Albert, Bowe and Dorsey.

Great post. Sums my thoughts up precisely.

People usually go with what they know and do best. I think the critical thing is if you go with something, you make sure all of your organization is on the same page and all in. If Pioli feels better about the 3-4 system and the flexibility that provides, and that's his long term plan, then he should stick with it.

I think we've seen it before. Vermeil showed up here year one and took a team that Gunther had "built" to be a big, powerful team which runs the ball and uses the play action pass, and immediately tried to turn them into a quick, finesse type team that scores quickly and often. Edwards came in and made sure he dismantled the offense to slow down, and played his Tampa 2 scheme that he's familiar with.

The failure has always been in the execution. Vermeil paid little attention to defense and the two guys who he brought in were ill equipped to have autonomy over that side of the ball. You bring in a guy with the stature of Gregg Williams or someone like that and hand over the reigns of the defense to them, not jokes like GRob and Gunther. If you are Herm, you don't hand the reins of an offense over to an OL coach or have a guy who likes to play physical man coverage and blitz call a zone heavy cover 2 scheme. If you are Todd Haley, you don't keep around an OC that doesn't mesh with you, only to fire him and change the playbook two weeks before the season, and hire a DC that isn't necessarily a very good 3-4 DC.

Pioli is going to have his system just like Parcells and Holmgren have their systems. The bottom line is going to come down to how they draft, so if Pioli doesn't improve in that department then it's pointless. But probably the best thing he's done since taking over is bringing in people who all seem to finally be on the same page, and for the first time in a decade, I can look at our OC and DC and not be embarrassed by one or the other...

Really?

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6639/gutpr5.jpg

What the Chiefs are is a team that's been spiraling downwards for more than a decade - or "swirling 'round the bowl" as I like to put it. This is their 3rd complete rebuild in that time, and each one has involved a completely different approach to building a football team. They've gone from trying to retain the "glory" of the 90s (Gunther '99-'00) built around a defense that was already steadily declining, to trying to recapture the magical season the Rams had in '99 with a system Vermeil built around giving up picks for coaches and veteran players, to again building around defense with Edwards to now building around defense again, but with a drastically different scheme.

This has been one of the worst-managed franchises for years, as far as football goes. They've drafted poorly, they've never built a central core of talent, they've had little to no stability on the coaching staff, . That's where Pioli was starting from. And what he has to do is something their was a pretty lengthy article about during the coaching search last year (or was that even the GM search), when they were talking about how Clark wants to model the franchise around the Steelers. Not in terms of how they play, but how the organization as a whole is structured. They find the systems they want, which was apparently the 3-4 and a more pass-oriented offense, they find the coaches they want to execute that (which I think was Weis and Crennel all along), and then they stick with it...for years.

This has always been something that was going to take a while to turn around. 2009 was always the tear down and roster assessment year, sort of year 1a of the rebuild. 2010 is year 1b. If they're lucky they'll be competitive, although reality is they did win 4 games last year. Although on the other hand, they do play in one of the worst divisions in the game.

Fans are fickle. People are already turning on the 3-4, which is ironic after 10 years of hearing people talk about how they wanted the it. Now that they have it, they want the 4-3 again. I guess that's just how it goes; the grass is always greener. But what the franchise needs to do is stabilize, and that means Haley gets years to put it together. That means the defense doesn't change back to a 4-3 after a single year as a 3-4. Or two years. Or three. That means they stay on the course they're on.

So far Pioli has seen that those traditions continue.

I bet you he isn't even here in three years. He'll be scapegoat #1.

You're proving my point about fans being fickle. 12 months later we know everything. No sense of time.

Sorry, Keg, the time was last year. And they ****ed last year up.

So far they are no better than all the other clowns that had the Chiefs swirling round the bowl.

Is there anything here Pioli didn't say about the Chiefs when he was hired? Maybe it was a preemptive excuse, but it isn't new.

It kinda is. Pioli didn't come out at his press conference and say "oh man, we're kinda ****ed right now so just sit back and relax while we suck."

It's only ****ed up if you don't understand what last year was, which was the year to tear down the roster and assess what was left. And they still won twice as many games against a more difficult schedule. What were you expecting, really, in 2009? That they'd instantly turn a 2-14 team into a contender? If that's the case, then that's a failure on your part, not theirs. What else did you want? Sexier draft picks? Hell, two years from now the guys they picked-up may (or may not) be as good as anybody else out of that class, we have no way of knowing, and that's without even considering that the front office was working with one hand tied behind its collective back (read: Peterson's left-overs). Either way, who Tyson Jackson was in 2009 doesn't particularly matter; it's all about who Tyson Jackson is from 2011 and onward, and the same goes with all the rest of the picks.

Again, no sense of time. Everybody wants instant gratification when the reality is that it's going to take years.

And have a shitty draft?

And screw around with worthless players in free agency?

And hire coaches who are now gone?

And trade for a shitty quarterback?

Yeah, year one was just a year to assess....they didn't REALLY intend to accomplish anything....

Garbage.

And yes, Keg, it WAS a shitty draft. There's something to be said for being patient with players but when all of those players, save the kicker, show absolutely NOTHING and contribute in no meaningful way, there are clear warning signs. So don't sit there and act like we should all be patient and suddenly these guys will turn into All-Pros.

GoChiefs knows what he is talking about and is smarter than Pioli... he writes for WPI.

Well hey, let's take a look at YOUR post history.

Wow. You are a goddamn genius.

ROFL

You're not answering any questions, you're just throwing out more hyperbole. Again, I'll ask what I did before: what did you expect to happen in 2009? What were your expectations?This is the problem when you get tunnel-vision, when you look at 2009 in a bubble. Success or failure, whether you're looking at the team as a whole or at a specific player, is not a matter of one year. Matt Cassel's success or failure is not yet decided, whether you like him or not (and I don't). Neither is Tyson Jackson's, or Alex Magee's, or Colin Brown's, or anybody else's. These guys have years to prove what kind of players they are, for good or ill. And the same's true of Pioli. He's got years to put this thing together; 2009 was just the first step down the path, and some of the moves that look like misses now may or may not turn out to be okay in the long run. There's no way to know.

Don't mistake this as confidence or optimism. It's not. It's just an acknowledgment of my own limits when it comes to reading tea leaves or crystal balls or any other forms of divination. I understand it's easier to just throw your arms up and scream bloody murder, rather than to see how it actually plays out.

Not to suck ass? Seriously, pretty much everything we saw last year was a carbon copy of crap from the old regime.

You can sit here and preach "patience" as much as you want. But OTHER teams find impact players in the first year of a new regime. OTHER teams find rookies that contribute in some way in their first year.

It's nice to just sit there and say "anything can happen." You know what? That doesn't deal in reality. The reality is Pioli shit the bed last year. Because it doesn't MATTER what Tyson Jackson turns into. He's still going to be a five-tech when it's all said and done.

And that's why we're sitting here day after day this offseason, PRAYING that they take a player who will have a real impact.

Yep.

FAX

That's a blanket statement that didn't really play out for "regime change" teams in 2009:

2008 Lions: 0-16
2009 Lions: 2-14

2008 Bucs: 9-7
2009 Bucs: 3-13

2008 Seahawks: 4-12
2009 Seahawks: 5-11

2008 Rams: 2-14
2009 Rams: 1-15

2008 Browns: 4-12
2009 Browns: 5-11

2008 Donx: 8-8
2009 Donx: 8-8

2008 Chiefs: 2-14
2009 Chiefs: 4-12

Sometimes teams catch lightning in a bottle and turn around quickly like the Falcons and Dolphins in '08, but it doesn't always happen so quickly, and due to many factors, be it the availability (or lack of) of impact talent in '09, the financial state of the game, personnel miscalculations, whatever it was, bad teams who went out and changed the guys running the team didn't really improve very much. The only two "bad" teams that really turned it around were Cincinnati and Green Bay, and both of those teams maintained stability in leadership...

I'm not even talking about overall record.

There were a shit ton of teams last year who got more contribution from their rookie class than Ryan Succop the wonder leg.

Sitting here and saying "eh, the rookies didn't do much, but give them time" is being SOFT. We need to hold our front officers to a MUCH higher standard.

Just for comparison's sake, the Oakland Raiders had a shitty year and a fairly shitty draft. They still got decent production (35 catches, 4 TD) out of Louis Murphy and got 4 sacks out of Matt Shaughnessy.

Meanwhile the Chiefs draft guys like Donald Washington and Quinten Lawrence who are lucky to play in a game.

I took Murphy last year in the 4th.

Too bad it doesn't count.

The Dolphins? JFC, WHY would you include them?

It's been discussed to death but the Dolphins were smoke and mirrors. I said in January 2009 that they'd be LUCKY to be 8-8 last year and guess what?

They were 7-9.

I never stated I was a genius like you do. Your a idiot that thinks you know football because your a hack that gets paid for a crappy website. You think your getting me riled up, but I'm just laughing at you. I'm waiting for your million come backs but in reality you know your hack like everyone else on here knows.

That's all well and good but out of seven draft choices and 38 free agent acquisitions, the Chiefs were unable to find something they sorely lacked:

A game-changing, playmaking, difference maker.

Pioli can bring everyone that's even been associated with Parcell, Belichick and himself but until he drafts or signs some playmakers on both sides of the ball, this team will continue to falter.

Hey dumb****: football is not rocket science. This shit is obvious to anyone with half a brain. If you have less than half a brain, you think Bobby Wade is Wes Welker. You must have thought Lance Long was Steve Largent.

Its you're, as in you are. If you're going to call someone out for being stupid at least learn to spell and use correct punctuation.

No one is going to argue that anyone outside of the kicker made much of an impact last year. For impact in 2009, it was a bad draft. Do Jackson and Magee make an impact here in the next couple of years? They better. Linemen take longer to mature and I'm still not sure why the hell Krumrie was coaching these guys last year. That still doesn't mean there won't be production in the future from some of these guys. There better be.

If this becomes a recurring pattern, IE the 2009 draft is a bust and the 2010 draft provides nothing, then absolutely, a pattern will have been seen and there's really no way around it. He's gotta do better on this draft. If I recall, AJ Smith and the Chargers had a pretty bad draft in 2003, but have been pretty good from that point on, and Drew Brees went from being a bad QB to an all pro, sort of like Jamaal Charles went from being a fumbling 3rd down back to a dynamic force. Sometimes it takes a while for the light to come on with these guys.

But it still appears that 2009 was a bad year for whatever reason to have a quick turnaround with any team in the NFL...

And I don't disagree at all, but keep in mind that was a 1-15 team. To even sniff 8 wins a year later, to me, is a good turnaround. Was their division championship a lot of smoke and mirrors? Absolutely. But it was nevertheless a heck of a turnaround for one year...

In 2003 San Diego picked 30th...not 3rd, there's a slight difference there. Of course that was after a trade down but they still did not have a top 5 pick.

I don't disagree with that. They do need playmakers. But the reality is, as I mentioned, that it's one offseason. And they need(ed) literally dozens of players across the board. I thought before they even started it was going to take three years to put the team together. Which doesn't mean that I'm saying last offseason was somehow unimportant or that it should be written off; the players they drafted last year have to be good. They have to be pieces of the puzzle, so to speak.

There have to be more this year, and eventually they have to add some playmakers to the bunch.

This is just my own (oft-stated) opinion, but I think the way the draft fell last year was primarily luck. Really, really bad luck. Because the Chiefs were in a position to draft a primetime player but, unfortunately for them, it was a draft without any, at least not once Stafford was off the board. I didn't want Sanchez any more than I wanted Cassel (and it's not because I'm shy about drafting a QB; I just didn't like Sanchez...). I didn't want Curry. Or Crabtree. I didn't want one of the offensive tackles after the way Albert played in 2008. I didn't want Orakpo (which may or may not be a mistake in the long run). I didn't want Jackson, either, but he actually fit exactly the kind of player I expected them to draft, so it didn't really come as any surprise. But, really, looking back at that list, what playmaker was there, especially if you look at it with April 2009 eyes...

I think this draft will ultimately be a lot more telling. And you won't find anybody more disappointed or disgusted than me if the first name called ends up being an offensive tackle. This is a much stronger class, and I think this draft as a whole is a better one, as deep as last year's was after you got past the weak-as-hell top of the first round. I think they have an opportunity to really land some talent, and they'll perhaps be more able to do so because they addressed some of the more workmanlike positions in 2009.

But that's just a guess...

Maybe in the end they'll just keep taking more linemen in every round.

I didn't like KC's 2009 draft but Keg has a good point that all of these players are young and deserve some time to develop. Alex Magee is only 22 years old. Tyson Jackson and Donald Washington are also only 23.

I wish we would have seen more potential from all of these players last year but let's see what happens this coming season with them.

I was kind of concerned seeing all of the CBs the Chiefs have been interviewing that are projected to go in the 2nd round. That would mean that Donald Washington is the FAIL.

No matter what year it is you can not be missing on top 5 picks or trading for scrub QB's and act like you're building something for the long haul.

Here's what I know you meant to say :)

Washington was one of those guys they drafted more on potential than production. He may end up amounting to nothing, but he also declared as an underclassman, so last year should have been his senior year. Hopefully he doesn't end up being a failure...

He certainly brings piss and frustration to life on a daily basis.

You can argue if it was Pioli or Belichick behind the magic curtain. But you can't argue with the fact that he knows 'the system' inside and out. I always admired how the Patriots got prima donas to become team players.

No.

Branden Albert handled Richard Seymour and Joey Porter thoroughly in his rookie year. You don't do that if you're not really talented.

Bowe's production was right in line with a future top 10 WR.

Charles had already shown game breaking ability and ungodly speed. There wasn't really much of a difference between he and Felix Jones running up to the 2008 draft, but people forget that.

Gonzalez was an "over the top" piece, and the one transaction it looks like Pioli absolutely nailed.

We had the #3 overall pick and #34 in what is looking like a pretty ****ing underrated draft class..

With a ****ing franchise QB sitting at #3. Thats the hardest pill to swallow.

Evaluation year. Get over it.

"Rebuilding/Get Over It"

Tripod doesn't allow hotlinking, n00b.

Interesting. I can still see the pic. Nobody else can?

Im a tripod

ba doom pshhhhhh

I thought flop was referencing "Mini Me" for a moment there.

I'de like to see the Chiefs Brass hire all the dipshits from Chiefsplanet who claim to know everything for ONE season. Then when they suck ass after one year, the remainder of us can tell them just how f***ing stupid they really are and have no business talking on an NFL message board.

You get one year b***hes... I want to be a legit contender by seasons end.

Do I get an "evaluation year" first?

That's industry standard, right?

I'll take the job, and pound some sense in to that bald head while teaching the bitch a new trick or two in the process, mother****er!

Bring it! Bring that ****ing contract, and do it YESTERDAY.

I ain't got another 40 years to bleed.

You forgot Hali.

Dude, if one of us got the job, traded for a career backup and gave him a huge contract, signed a bunch of worthless players and had a fairly useless (or at least disappointing) draft we would be fired after one year.

What moves are you happy that Pioli made as being the highest paid GM in the NFL?

real talk

**** that shit! I don't even need THAT!

Bring that contract, you uppity mother****er! Let's get it ON!

Yup, eight average to solid starters....ground zero indeed. Nothing to work with.

Honestly, you take Dane, Hamas, DeezNutz, OTWP and Mecca, put them in a room, and have them run a draft........they could easily do better than the pile of shit the Chiefs put together last year.

That's how bad it was.

Thanks...I think?

LMAO.

It's a stretch to say any group of fans could run a draft better than NFL front officers. But with what the Chiefs did last year....certainly a bunch of internet assclowns could improve upon it.

Take that as a compliment.

And I can't upload that as my sig why?

It's way to early to judge Pioli and co. 1st draft here. What if T. Jackson, and say Colin Brown become Pro Bowlers 2 or 3 years down the road... What will we say then. I'm just using Colin Brown as an example, but lets say they put him on IR with an "Injury" to keep him on the team... Instead of having another Lilja situation... I'm just saying there is more behind the scenes than we know..

The problem here is that this team needed production, not potential.

If your team is one that is already competing, then you can afford to use 4th round picks on projects.

But this team sucks ass.

A 4th rounder should be a contributor.

Absolutely, which is why guys like Washington and Colin Brown were head scratchers.

Amazing how you can write off an entire draft class after 1 year.

1 and done.

the only pick that wasn't was Mr Succop

its not writing them off one bit. I'm pretty sure most of us feel that Tyson will develop into a good player, as will Magee...the problem is who we passed on to select them.

Its a lack of value comprehension, draft-wise.

What do you see from the class? Jackson can never justify his pick...then after that we have a bunch of blah mid rounders.