Re-Signing Brandon Carr: What Do You Do
 

There's about four more week of football ahead of us.

We've managed to wrap up Brandon Flowers during the season, Tamba Hali this offseason, DJ and Jamaal Charles last offseason...

This offseason, we have two very important players hitting free agency, and one franchise tag.

The tag goes to Bowe, no sweat. It's impossible to find franchise WRs, and when you have one, you must keep it. He's Top 10 at his position. Carr, for all his talent, is not. He's maybe top 25.

But what would you do if:

Carr (or, more likely, his agent) knows Carr is bound to be drastically overpaid on the free agent market, as young talent almost always is.

He knows the Chiefs desperately want Carr to stay on board. And the Chiefs have no leverage to keep him on board because their franchise tag is tied up with Bowe.

So knowing he has ALL the leverage in this situation, Carr opens big:

"I want 5 years, $50 million, $22 million guaranteed.

Just like my teammate, Brandon Flowers." (And other top flight corners like Johnathan Joseph, who got almost the exact same deal.)

You can haggle with Carr, but keep in mind, you're incredibly time-pressured, and Carr knows he has the leverage here. Even if you get him to come down, it's going to be nickels and dimes lower, not much else.

Do you (a.) sign Carr to a damn near identical deal to Brandon Flowers, or (b.)let Carr walk and just collect the 3rd or 4th round compensatory pick next year.

That's likely going to be our options at this point, folks.

Poll forthcoming.

pay him. Some weeks he looks better than Flowers.

we better re sign Carr damnit

Congratulations. You're paying your starting corners $100 million dollars.

Neither of them is All Pro. And one of them isn't even a Pro Bowler.

Shoot him in the face.

Since when does anyone give a shit about the Pro Bowl?

Direckshun or Carr?

this is the new Carter + Hasty

PAY HIM

You have to ask yourself:

Do I want to pay my starting cornerback duos, one of them amazing Pro Bowl talent (but not a lockdown, All Pro type), the other a great supporting role character but not a year-in, year-out Pro Bowl talent, $100 million dollars?

aaaaaaaand we've been $30M under the ****ing cap the last 2 years. BFD. The pro bowl can lick my ****ing sac.

Is it?

Carter was an All Pro talent, Hasty among the league's best CBs.

Carr and Flowers are really good, but that's not quite the same level there.

they are 2 of the best in the business
pay em
but if the nfl goes all tebow who needs cbs

At the rate Pioli is drafting cornerback busts, how can he afford NOT to resign Carr?

Imagine if we had a complete team apart from some asshole playing RCB.

+1

Cut Cassel and give his money to Carr.

EASY PEASY JAPANESE

I'm just saying.

Think of all the pieces this team needs that would conceivably cost a shit ton.

QB. NT. LT (Albert will need to get paid in a year).

So on and so on.

I remember carter and hasty, \i think these 2 have that same if not better level
keep em

Albert isn't going to command much, and I doubt we overspend on NT.

First-round QB will come cheap these days.

Pay the man now and worry about the cap in 3 years.

How quickly we forget the days of Warfield/Bartee/Dennis

this

PAY HIM

What are the top CB duos in the league?

Because you gotta figure for $100 million dollars, this has to be a Top 3 corner combo.

Is Flowers/Carr a Top 3 corner duo?

I say yes

I'd take Revis/Cromartie.

Samuels/Asomugha

???

I don't know enough of the corner duos in the NFL. Will start looking.

Cromartie's a joke as a "top corner."

He gets burned. A LOT.

Revis is a God. Which Cro do u get week to week. He almost always leads the league in PI's. The Eagles are a ****ing abortion. Asomugha is overrated, IMO. This kinda shit always comes down to opinions. In my world, if you develop quality DE's/NT's/CB's...u keep 'em.

"Overpay" and have Carr and Flowers for years, or let him walk and hope Arenas can develop into a #2 corner?

I say pay him, and sort it out with the cap space we have going forward.

The AFC. The bolded terms are the CB combos I'd prefer over Flowers/Carr.

Who you people want to pay a combined $100 million dollars.

Patriots: McCourty/Bodden
Jets: Revis/Cromartie
Dolphins: Davis/Smith
Bills: Florence/Williams

Ravens: Webb/Williams
Steelers: Taylor/McFadden
Bengals: Hall/Clements
Browns: Haden/Brown

Texans: Joseph/Jackson
Jaguars: Mathis/Coleman
Titans: Finnegan/McCourty
Colts: Powers/Lacey

Broncos: Bailey/Goodman
Raiders: Routt/Checkwa
Chargers: Jammer/Gilchrist

Andre Goodman ****ing sucks and Bailey is ancient.

You're a nutter.

Bolded are the corner duo's you'd take over Flowers/Carr giving up more passing yards a game.

The NFC. Bolding the combos I'd prefer over Flowers/Carr.

Cowboys: Newman/Jenkins (comes close, but no cigar)
Giants: Ross/Webster
Redskins: Hall/Wilson
Eagles: Asomugha/Samuels

Packers: Woodson/Shields
Lions: Houston/Wright
Bears: Tillman/Jennings
Vikings: Griffin/Winfield

Saints: Porter/Greer
Falcons: Robinson/Franks
Panthers: Gamble/Munnerlyn
Bucs: Barber/Talib (close, no cigar)

49ers: Brown/Rogers
Cardinals: Peterson/Marshall
Seahawks: Browner/Sherman
Rams: Fletcher/King

Bolded are the corner duo's you'd take over Flowers/Carr giving up more passing yards a game...

... ****, didn't have to change anything.

Again, the argument is NOT that Flowers/Carr is a bad combo.

I think they're a Top 5 combo. Maybe even a Top 3 combo.

But you're suggesting that we pay them $100 million together. It's important to keep context in mind.

No one is suggesting anything. We are suggesting we sign Carr... You are the one coming up with $$$$'s.

Do the math.

If I'm Brandon Carr, I can take the Chiefs to the cleaner if they reeeeally want to pay me. You guys can't tag me with shit.

Or I can hit the free market and have four teams compete for me and the winner will drastically overpay, as they always always have to.

What I'm suggesting is realistic.

Who cares? It's not like we don't have the resources to lock these two up and not go after other areas of need, even next season.

Anyway we can package him in a trade for Luck?

Because the best defenses in the league are built in the front seven. That's who you pay. The secondary is usually devalued because you can adjust for weak links easier, especially if you have a dynamic passrush.

It's the same reason we don't want to have $100 million tied up in a pair of elite runningbacks, or pay $100 million tied up along our interior offensive line.

Or in defensive en....

Right.

I'd rather have $100 million tied up in a pair of passrushers. Hell I'll tie up $120 million there.

$100 million in receivers. Or in a QB/RB combo.

I'm not saying don't do it, just yet. But watch how much Carr signs for if he hits the open market.

Ya, we might want to rethink this... Carr would probably get 5-7mil a year and a top 10 QB would get 4-5mil a year. Say they get 7 and 5 per year... I really don't know how the Chiefs would spend the rest of that 18mil a year on backups...

Edit: forgot to add in Carr's current salary to that cap. So make that 20mil a year on backups.

I'll agree about the front seven, but saying that, it begs the question of where do you think they are and how far away are they. They're not there yet, but how far away are they? You could even argue that the front seven has looked better BECAUSE we have two guys that can go lock up their guys (yeah, I know that flies in the face of rational defensive thinking, but it's plausible).

Another angle to consider - the league is evolving, and you need more than one front line caliber corner with the way the passing game is becoming more prevalent.

I should probably add Bowe's franchise money into that cap. What would it be? Around 10mil or so? So that's another 8mil hit to the salary cap.

12mil for a C/G, RT, and roster depth... not including players who will get cut.

For one guaranteed money isn't $100,000,000. Front load his deal and eat up some cap right away.

Sign him. NT is going to be a rookie, nobody lets those guys go. QB better be a rookie too. Both cheap.

Yeah, really you need 3 or 4.

I hope we don't let Carr go, I like him as a Chief. I like having continuity built through the draft. Getting EB back next year along side with Kendrick Lewis is going to help Carr & Flowers look that much better than they are.


Maybe if they didn't sign Cassel to that rediculous contract we would be in better shape all together. No other team would have given that money to Cassel, we could have had him cheap in the first place so that we can make moves now after the fact he sucked ass. **** you Pioli for Cassel **** you. Yet we are still not in over our heads with cap money not being there, with the draft pick money set aside for that we should be in good shape to make a deal with Carr. No excuses to let him go or draft a QBotf with our number 1 pick.

Hope to God we keep D Bowe happy here too. I know he will play a factor with what ever he wants to stay a Chief or not in order to keep Carr. We still have cap room to make it work imo. As long as we don't go crazy in FA and continue to use the draft for our core players.

yep.

resign him.

Choice A, and let Carr and Flowers switch on the Plaza Lights, with Haley connecting the neutral leg

Pay the man.

As much as I like to see the guy stay in KC. KC has already drafted CB's in earlyish rounds Arenas (2nd) and Brown (4th.)

KC would probablylike to have him back, but he'll take the money in an open market.

i'm going to be bummed if this guy walks.

his progression has been fun to watch especially in some of these years with awful play from other positions such as QB, so when you end up watching games you need something to cheer for, and watching a guy like Carr become the player he is today has been one of the few bright spots of the Chiefs over the last 3-4 seasons.

I will be a fan of his wherever he goes, if in fact the team keeps drafting these mid-round CBs and let him walk (The Pats tree MO- RE: Asante Samuel and a bunch of other defensive backs over the years).

In any case, he ran stride for stride with Johnny Knox, one of the fastest WRs in the game Sunday and outsized him, out jumped him and outclassed him on that interception. Granted that pass was awful and under thrown, he still made a great play on the ball and is one of the reasons I wish we would re-sign him, and pay the man, because we DO HAVE THE CAP SPACE to do it. But of course, with this FO, anything can happen. I'm prepared for the best and worst.

With Baldwin and Breaston, it's tempting to see who/what we could get for Bowe. Sure I'm in the minority with that opinion.

Yeah...this isn't cut and dry. I'd rather have Carr, of course. But not for a crazy contract. Arenas and Daniels have been good enough that I'm not super concerned if Carr walks. Our safety depth is more important than CB depth for our style of defense.

My only unknown is Jalil Brown--haven't seen him enough. If I could guarantee Brown to develop, I would spend my money elsewhere.

I don't think there are 15 better than Carr right now, let alone 25.

Pay him.

The guy is a top 15 CB in the league.

You keep him for mainly for that reason.

Flowers and Carr is a strong CB duo. You just don't break up whats already working. The chemistry is there. Its set. Keep that in place. Plus, do you really want to see the Chiefs have to go through that whole process of finding another CB to replace him?

*If you find good players, you keep them. Re-sign him and build on top of what you have. You let him go, and the rebuilding process becomes that much more difficult.

Sign him.

We have the $$$.

You lock up Bowe and Carr.

We have the cap space if a year or two later we decide to (be stupid) trade them...

Why do you care how much money they're getting?

They're a damn good duo and better than most of the duos you listed earlier In this thread.
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I said it when we signed Flowers; we should've targeted Carr first (I wanted him done last offseason but I guess Pioli was busy chasing all those premier FA targets). He would have been the cheaper signing and a guy that could've 'set' the baseline for Flowers.

Pioli screwed the pooch by overpaying a little on Flowers. It will come back to bite us twice as we try to get through these Carr negotiations. My guess is we'll end up losing him because we didn't get him locked up prior to giving Flowers a premier contract.

pay the man he's earned it.

I don't think most people care what he's paid. I think most only care about how our maximum cap money is distributed amongst the most important positions. If Carr hurts our chance to upgrade a more important position, I'm against re-signing him.

Why would you want to set the baseline?

I'd rather sign Flowers first and set the ceiling than sign Carr first and set the baseline.
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Sign the dude. We have the money. Especially if we cut Cassel loose (doubtful). Cut the fat off this roster and bring in some young guys via draft/fa.

Gotta sign him. Just remember Warfield and Bartee. Pull out the checkbook.

I'm not.

Who's going to be a FA that deserves it more?...

THIS.

Or, more appropriately, think back to Hasty and Carter...

I'd probably cap out any deal I gave Carr at 7/year and I'd try to front-load it.

I doubt anyone his age would go 7 without getting sick numbers.

But a front-loaded 4 or 5 year deal would kick all kinds of ass...

Because Joseph set the market for Flowers and that market wasn't going to move.

By getting the cheaper guy signed first, you can still be coy as to the value you place on the position. You can go to Carr and say "we love having you on the squad, but this is approximately what the organization is willing to spend on its corners." He can cite the Joseph contract if he wants, but you can just make the argument that Texas was a desperate organization that overvalued the position, blah blah blah. Instead, they established that they're absolutely willing to give the CB position a massive deal. Combine that with their decision to wait out the season and eliminate the 'injury' risk that often drives a low-value long-term contract and the Chiefs have lost all leverage here.

Prior to the season, Carr was seen as the clear #2 whereas Flowers was seen as the Pro-Bowl snub. I thought that made Carr a wildly undervalued asset. As such, he should've been re-signed then. Instead, by signing Flowers first, establishing the 'team value' of the position then waiting so long that their asset is no longer undervalued and they no longer have any leverage, the Chiefs have really cost themselves a lot of money and cap space.

I actually think they'll let him walk at this point rather than deal with that mistake.

Ah - here was my pre-season statement on Flowers v. Carr:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...6&postcount=18

Pioli really blew it with Carr, IMO.

Yeah. Best duo we've had since those guys. This defense is going to be really stout when we get Berry back. If Houston keeps progressing this nicely, we'll have a solid LB corps. Really the only thing we'll need is to upgrade the d-line and this defense will be BEAST.

With the new cap standard the NFL has implaced with the players this offseason, draft picks wont cost teams big $$$ & that's going to affect much of the negotiations. More teams are going be able to re sign there own top dollar players that normally would walk. I don't think that there is going be as big of a market in free agency with teams getting the draft money set aside with the new players deal. This is going be a factor for many teams in how they aproach the offseason imo.

He is more solid and a better DB than flowers.. You dont let him walk...

Nobody "deserves" anything. You decide what market price you're willing to pay. Plus, it's not about who's available on a current list somewhere. It's about giving yourself options in the distribution of your cap dollars based upon how you value of all the positions. This includes free agents, but also includes extending deals of other guys on the team as well as players that get cut or players you want the opportunity to trade for.

Ultimately, you value a position to a certain degree or you don't. It's a choice. In the Carter/Hasty days, CB was a HUGE deal for us. It's less so in our current defense compared to the safeties. Having said all that, I'd prefer to sign Carr. But not at any price. If we over-pay, I hope it's for fewer years and front-loaded, since that's where we have tons of cap space RIGHT NOW.

Spot on.

Very, very well said.

There's 2.5 million that could have gone to Carr instead of being flushed down the crapper with a flea flicker.

Who gives a ****? We have all sorts of money. Particularly if we dump Cassel.

If I'm GM I do it.

We finally got good players in a few positions. We keep them.

Ya, because claiming Orton has an effect on next years salary...

You keep Carr, this defense is on the verge of being one of the elite defenses in the NFL

LMAO Seriously? That has nothing to do with next yr.

I'm sure Clark is happy about a wasted 2.5 million. He's been a penny pincher since taking over.

I'm sure you have no idea what you are talking about.