Hot Water Heaters
 

(an aside, 4 people in the house and 2 of which are teenagers) I have 2x50 gal propane hot water heaters, 10 years old, set up in line. The thought was that have one (the last in line) fairly hot, and the first just warm. When the needed, I could turn up the first to hot as well...ie when I wanted to fill the big bath tub.

The first in line has stopped working. I can't /won't light. So we have been working on just one. Which is OK because we have the other (last in line) that works fine.

I am looking at upgrading the tanks. I saw online to have 1 propane tank coupled with a "tankless" hot water source. I don't know the price, setup requirements, cost etc.

I just want to have adequate hot water. Again, have two teenagers and a big bath tub that we don't use that much.

Should I just replace both 50 gal propane tanks, have a repairman come out to fix the first in line that doesn't work, or do the hybrid propane tank and a tankless source?

Cost is an issue to a degree. Or the increased value to the house with a tankless?

Thanks

Lewdog is also in need of a new water heater. Will be subscribing to thread for details. I only need one replacement though. Not sure the options.

Good thread OP.

Shit, if they're only 10 years old I'd try to get the 1st one working. Might be something as simple as the thermal cutoff being tripped.

Mine produces hot water, is 13 years old and original to the house but makes the loudest popping sounds when heating up. Anytime you run hot water, it starts up again and it's just super loud. It's done this the whole past year we've owned the house but it worries me. So just thinking about replacing it before it blows. Or at least the wife has convinced me to just replace it.

Thoughts?

Is it electric or propane?

Natural Gas.

It won't "blow up" as long as the pop-off valve is functional. Not unusual to hear some creaking from the temperature changing but shouldn't be anything too dramatic, might just be a cheapass builder grade water heater.

are expensive

If you go tankless, you shouldn't need another propane heater coupled to it. I have a tankless system and we've never ran out of hot water.

It is going to blow up and your house will look like Hiroshima or Nagasaki..whichever you prefer

I've had three hot water heaters in 12 years.

One was a GE, which was defective from the manufacturer. They offered to pay for the part but with the labor, I just decided to get a new model. That one lasted five years, yet it was a 12 year model.

The next was a Whirlpool that lasted six years. Again, it too was defective but Home Depot pro-rated it and gave me $300 towards a new Rheem platinum, which has been in for about four months.

Good times.

Hot water heater is redundant

Tankless are everywhere in Europe. They are awesome but they use an assload of fuel. The electrics are insane inefficient

It is a cheap ass builder grade heater. A.O. Smith is what it says.

Heh. I was about to post something like this.

"If the water is already hot, why does it need to be heated?"

Tankless use less gas than regular water heaters.

I own a duplex in Grand Junction CO and the water heaters on both sides went out within about a week of each other. (Probably about 7 years ago) Since that time I have had to replace one of them again last year. I think our water here is too hard or something...

Our water heater puts out shit for hot water pressure, likely due to buildup inside of it. The house is only ten years old, but the water here is about half calcium ions.

The average life expectancy for a heater is 8-10 years. The noise you're hearing is from sediment build up on the elements. If you do it yourself, you can replace both the thermostats and the elements for around 40 dollars, but because of it's age, you may just want to replace it

Yea we figured it was just time for replacing the whole thing. What do you recommend? I hear mixed reviews on tankless heaters. Some say they aren't energy efficient and we are gone most of the day and there's only two of us in our house. I don't mind waiting 30 seconds for the shower to heat up.

The gas units are very efficient. The electric ones do use a lot of power, but really not more than a tank style heater that comes on several times a day just to maintain the temperature of the stored water

Even with a Tankless heater, the wait time would be the same. If you're willing to shell out the money for a quality Tankless and a water softener, which is recommended, they're great. The 2-3k startup cost deters a lot of people from getting them here. Bradford white is our preferred brand of tank style heaters

Apparently, hot water heaters can be flushed out. There are services here that will do it for $99.00 and it's guaranteed.

Unfortunately, none of my hot water heaters have made it that long...

Huh? I work at a 20 year old apartment complex and we still have a shitton of the original water heaters. Hell the one in my own house is 25 years old, I've been here 16 and the only issue I've ever had with it is I had to re-light the pilot light one time. That must be what you tell your customers in order to get them to buy a water heater that they don't really need.

Well, we have extremely hard water here which plays hell on heaters. If you've ever tried to change an element in a heater that's full of sedement, you'd understand. And yes, most heaters carry a 6 year tank warranty and a life expectancy of 8-10 years. That's not me saying that, it's a well known fact in the industry

I thought our water here was shitty, maybe it's not all that bad. And I suppose that may very well be a fact today because nothing is built to last anymore.

Thanks, a lot of good info.

Again, have 2 tanks, propane. Both + 10yrs old. One works fine..the other doesn't work. Do I have a maintenance dude come out and fix the one that doesn't work, thus have 2 that work, or do a tankless combined with the old +10 tank?

I live on well water. Very nice water...soft.

I have heard the grubbling sounds as well...think we should "flush" out the sediments. I have never done that though.

I can't light the one tank....would like it to work and save money. Is it wise to have someone to come out and fix it or crap the darn thing that is +10 yrs old?

Then go tankless at one angle combined with the one that is still working or crap the whole thing and just do tankless without the propane backup?

Scrap the 2 heaters and go with 1 good tankless if you're willing to pay the startup cost

I tried to drain it a while back, but it made no different.

The inlet or outlet port on top of the heater is plugged up. This happens quite a bit. To fix it you need to cut the pipes just above the heater and knock out the build up with a screwdriver. It's probably in your best interest to call a pro in on this one

Lots of interesting advice. First 8 to ten years old is the standard life yes. All water heaters can last longer of you maintain them. Flushing is not the same as draining. If you have a gas heater that isnt producing as it once was flush it and replace the dip tubes. Dip tubes take the cold water in to the bottom to the tank. When they plug up or get a break in them cold water mixes with your hot water as it flows out of your tank giving you luke warm water. When it isnt functioning correctly you are wasting alot of money heating water that you never see. Too much to type it all out on my phone.

If the pilot light won't stay lit, it might be as simple as changing the thermocouple..

20$ , universal


Will the pilot stay lit or is the burner not igniting

Or am I q

I didn't read shit

Go tankless only if you intend to keep your house long term, otherwise you won't recoup your investment.

Electric heaters that keep blowing the bottom element are full of sediment.
If you see rust around the bottom of your heater replace it.

To the op fix your broken heater worst case it the gas valve best case it is the thermocouple. Easy fix if you want to try to check the thermocouple.

There's a little bullshit probe wire called thermocupule..

Change that bitch

20$ at home depot and a couple scresz

I'm a little late, but since this is what I do for a living I should chime in. Go tankless and never look back. Here's the kicker, don't go cheap. Rinnai is the only brand to consider. One r-75 will replace both 50 gal tanks, use less fuel and pay for itself. And there's a tax credit as well. They make both a propane and nat gas unit, you could go bigger with the r94 but you won't need it. If you really want to save some fuel get the ru80i, (condensing 96+% efficient) however you'll have to address the condensate. Costs more and if your local code requires it to be neutralized you have a little more cost.

Shouldn't run you over $3k out the door and could be even less since you already have gas lines. If you can mount it closer to your main water fixture it will run less.
I've put in over 100 over the last 6 years and never had a complaint. Our company has put in over 500 over the last 20 years and never removed one. I work on about 5-10 a year and most are over 10 years and don't require much work to fix.

Rinnai offers a 12 yr warranty and stand behind their product 100%.

Their boilers are an amazing machine and I'm installing about 1-2 every 2 months now.

Just to address the won't pay for itself crowd, mine paid for itself in 3 months, I've yet to have a customer take more than 3 yrs to recoup the install cost. Most customers save enough to pay for the job, including gas line, in about a year not counting the tax credits. With a gas tank water heater it will take a bit longer but not by much, and the lack of maintenance and the convenience of endless hot water/worry free operation easily offset the cost of going tankless.

My gas bill, which includes my hot water heater and stove top, has never averaged more than $28 dollars a month.

:D

I do a ton of budget tank replacements in the kc metro. Not too many people want to pop for a tankless around here. Spend $700 or $3k? 99pct choose the cheaper option even understanding that they will recoup the up front cost.

Cool, you get billed monthly for propane.
:-)

Nat gas is a different story, but still a tankless will save money over the long run.

SoCal Gas Company is propane?

We thought about a tankless but considering it would take about 10 years to payoff, we just stuck with a regular 50 gallon Rheem.

I was pointing out that in a thread about propane, you chose to use nat gas as an exception. Nat gas has some advantages (ex. Dirt cheap), however in the event of a natural disaster where the city shuts off the gas supply, propane has a huge advantage.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

I live in Los Angeles. The mean temperature is about 70 degrees. My gas bill, with stove top and hot water, averages about $26 or so month.

I have an Earthquake shutoff valve on the gas line, which is required in SoCal. My gardeners set it off two weeks ago, so I don't think there is much of a chance of disaster, as restrictions were put in place after the January 1994 Northridge earthquake.

lol, I was referring to that in the event of a major disaster the gas lines get shut off at the source, if you have propane you have your own tank and storage. Thus emergency time with nat gas no hot water/cooking (or heat, power through a genset, etc) with propane come disaster time you still have hot water/cooking etc.

Its sad that appliances just aren't made to last anymore. Just had to replace a new refrigerator that we got 17 years out of and the new fridge is not even a month old and I have placed a second service call on it already.

Rinnai is definitely a good unit and has been a leader in the field for some time, but Navien is giving them a run for their money. They are 99% efficient, have all stainless inner workings, and a built in recirculating pump. Rinnai is a ford, Navien is a Cadillac

Unless it won't make hot water. :p

The manufacturers of HWH are changing sizes as well. The vendor that supplies one of the local plumbing outfits has put them on notice of the dimension changes. Knowing several plumbers very well I must say I would not use a tankless.

Just as an aside, if it means anything to you. The boiler modules for tankless Rinnai heaters are manufactured in beautiful Springfield Mo.

I will say I've heard good things about Navien, just yet to put one in. in about a month or two I'll be installing one of their combi units and that will be the first Navien installed in this town. I've been looking forward to seeing inside of it.

I have a Marathon/Rheem 85 gallon electric water heater. It's one of the lifetime warranty/plastic tanks and is tied into my geo unit.


I'm not certain it's the way I'd go again. The energy efficiency is great and there are benefits to the setup, but I have 1 issue.

With this unit for example in the evenings, the kids take baths/showers and say use 30 gallons of water. If I go to shower an hour later, or fill a bubble tub, the water is luke warm, not hot. My guess what happens is you take 85 gallon tank of hot water, refill it with 30-40 gallons of cold water and it takes the electric too long to heat it back up.

I've considered adding a 2nd heater in series, where the main use was from the geo, but refilled from the 2nd unit so it was essentially 85+40/50 gallons of hot water.


If on-demand was more efficient I think I'd have looked alot harder at that. As it was, geo required the larger tank anyway and I thought this would save me money in the long run.

The nice thing about tankless is it never runs out, unless you run out of gas.

I sell quite a few to people not for the cost savings but because there electrics can't keep up with demand. I'm guilty as well, after softball tourneys I'll use my shower as a hot tub, I added a second shower head on the other side and will stand there just getting blasted with hot water for an hour or so. Costs me about $1.50 in fuel for an hour shower at 5-6gpm of 115* water.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying! :thumb:

I will check the thermocouple first.

You all have been very helpful. Thanks

So are the tankless better than they used to be....many of my friends complain about them.

You get what you pay for. if you buy a home depot special for $150, that's not going to work nearly as well as the units that we have been talking about on here

Yes and with that size increase come a pretty hefty price increase. If you're thinking of replacing your water heater, do it before April 16th.

I'm not sure what your plumber friends have against tankless heaters. If you buy a good one sized to fit your needs and maintain it, they're great

I'll chime in.

The ridiculous expense of decent tankless water heaters can never recover their cost. We did the math and it's just stupid expensive to install a tankless heater... not to mention the yearly maintenance by a professional.

Buy a quality tank heater (some even guarantee infinite hot water). Much better value and you don't need the expense of a plumber to "maintain" the tankless every year.

They're not for everyone to be sure. Like I said earlier, price is the biggest deterrent right now, but as more and more people get them, the price will come down and tank water heaters will go the way of the dinosaurs

Maintenence?

On a tankless, surely this is a joke. Rinnai "recommends" flushing with vinegar yearly, however it's not required and they warranty without. Even if you do, it takes 15 minutes and costs a gal of vinegar. Clean the inlet screen? Takes 2 seconds and is only necessary if it's completely filled with crap from the water lines. I know of many Rinnai's that are 15-20 years old, never had maintenence and function flawlessly. Hell the one at my dads house is over 15 years old and the vent is smashed to shit from ice dams falling on it, still works fine. It's never had any work done on it ever.

It's all in the water quality. In florida, our water is very hard and because of that, a lot of manufacturers won't honor their own warranty unless the owner has a water softener installed and is serviced annually. Obviously in different parts of the country the water quality is much better and Heaters need less maintenance

Ahh, that makes sense. We kind of take clean water for granted up here.

Also anyone that did put one in, don't forget the $300 tax credit.

Our water is so bad that the last time I changedthe element it was bent straight up and twisted all around from the sediment build up.

Why cut the pipes? Mine just screw on...

I assumed his was hard piped.

Good times

The complaints I have heard are price, you don't ever really get your money back for the extra expense, maintenance increase, and inconsistent water temperature especially between the seasons. Evidently the temp difference in the incoming water in the winter time affects the outflow temp if you don't adjust the unit.

I get the price issue, but c'mon, complaining that you have to adjust the temp for the season?

I assume if I did that I can just cut the pipe, replace the dip tube, and then affix the new pipe section to the old using flux and a butane torch, right?

Yes, just make sure you clean the fittings and pipe with sand cloth first, if you're not sure how to solder, youtube it first. You'll need to take the cold side fitting out to get to the dip tube

Or use Sharkbite fittings...



(runs for cover)

I've done plenty of soldering on electronics, but never a pipe.

No soldering required.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite...-202685636-_-N

As much as I don't like using sharkbites, they are a good option for the do it yourselfer

As a plumber, I don't hate sharkbites they do have places they're good for. As long as you're not burying it in a wall you're probably fine. I even used two in my place, the nice thing about them is that a valve will spin. I put an extra hose bib on my house that goes into the bathroom closet where I installed my tankless, I used two sharkbite valves (hot and cold) to the bib so that I can close the hot and spin it towards the wall, this keeps the kids from opening it or it accidentally opening and creating a cross connect. When I want hot water outside I can close the cold valve, spin the hot away from the wall and open it, now the garden hose can have hot water.

yeah, shark bites don't meet code if they are not accessible. But they are great for something like a water heater.

Once you have had access to hot water outside you will wonder forever why all houses don't have that

For those of you that don't watch the magnificent show Myth Busters:


1:16 is when the excitement begins!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jbreKn4PoAc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It happened again this weekend.

I have an 85 gallon water heater, and if the kids have showered/bathed within 4hrs, I'm not going to have a truly hot shower.

I'm going to have to add a 2nd tank or an on demand because this hippy-earth saver-Geothermal shit doesn't work for me.

I'm not real familiar with the Marathon, but it sounds like you either have a bad element, a bad dip tube or the temp is set too low

4 hours is more than enough recovery time for any heater which tells me something else is going on. Check the temp first. Adjust the t-stats 1 at a time and wait to see if the element comes on (you should hear it) then lower it until it turns off again. Raise the temp on the other one and see if it comes on. If they both come on, set the temp on both t-stats to the same temp (slightly higher than the original temp) and see what happens If one of the elements doesn't come on when you raise the temp, replace that element.

Good luck, I hope that helps