Brady v. NFL: No Settlement; Judge Berman to Decide
 

Can't find the old thread. Brady and Goodell were back in NYC today for settlement talks. No progress.

Judge Berman said he would likely decide "in the next day or two" and definitely before September 4th.

Interesting how the narrative among the national writers has evolved.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/roger-g...180816187.html


NEW YORK – They arrived surrounded by lawyers, each wearing a blue suit and displeased expression. Here was Roger Goodell and here was Tom Brady back in federal court in a fight over power, ego and legacy, as much as whether the footballs were deflated in January's AFC championship game.

New York Giants owner John Mara came in an attempt to soften the face of the league's side a bit. Jay Feely, a long-time NFL kicker and friend of Brady's from back at the University of Michigan, arrived to stand by his side.

Once again, nothing worked. A private meeting in front of Judge Richard M. Berman yielded nothing. No one budged. No one backed down. No settlement was reached.
And now both sides roll the dice and sit and wait for a ruling.

"Tomorrow or the day after," Berman said of when he would likely announce whether to vacate Brady's four-game suspension. He assured it would come before Sept. 4, when both sides requested an answer so the New England Patriots can begin preparing for the season opener with or without their star quarterback.

So that's that, all or nothing, all or everything, all eyes on the court docket here.

For Brady it's either a quarter of the season lost or a measure of redemption gained. For Goodell it's either a reaffirmation of the totality of his authority or another humiliating public defeat.

There may be appeals and requests for stays and thus months still to go, what will be won, what may not be done. None of that minimized the tension and drama inside Berman's 17th-floor courtroom here on Monday, when a case that started as a curiosity on that playoff night boiled toward a milestone, if not a conclusion.

Berman clearly knows how he is going to rule and likely has much of the decision already written. He's read and heard it all over the past month. There were no new arguments on Monday. The chief attorneys, Daniel Nash of the NFL and Jeffrey Kessler of the NFL Players Association, both merely stood and praised the efforts of all sides even though, as sometimes happens, they just couldn't reach a settlement.

"This is a time Mr. Nash and I are going to agree," Kessler joked.

The inability to find common ground is not a surprise. Tom Brady was simply never going to admit he had any role in the tampering of those footballs, or even that the footballs were ever tampered with in the first place.

First off, after he said as much under oath and then introduced the transcript into federal court, doing so would risk a perjury charge. More importantly though, it would be a complete reversal, making him a liar and a cheat, crushing his image among not just fans but, most importantly according to those that know him best, his own children.

He also very well may be innocent. The NFL never produced much of a case against him, let alone that the footballs were even unnaturally deflated.

So the only way a settlement could go down was for Goodell to drop any demands for an admission of guilt. He'd have to settle for Brady merely acknowledging a failure to fully cooperate with the investigation. That, however, would be a serious concession from a commissioner who's built his career on cracking heads among misbehaving players.

So there was the irresistible force clashing with the unmovable object, each willing to lose in court as long as he could still save face.
It has been, if nothing else, a remarkable showdown of oversized personalities.

In court Monday, the two men, rich and famous and atop their chosen professions, refused to even look at each other.

When the session was adjourned, both were forced to awkwardly wait for the galley to clear out of media and observers, leaving them within a few feet of each other a couple table rows apart.

Brady stood first and wandered over to one wood-paneled wall of the ornate courtroom. He stuffed his hands in his pocket, looking as intense as any tight fourth-quarter drive. Feely stood by his side and the two eventually hugged.

Goodell, seated in front, stood slowly and also put his hands in his pocket, looking down and then turning in the opposite direction of Brady, trying to wear a face of nonchalance.

Eight months into this scandal, after swings of allegations and misrepresentations, of false media leaks and broadside-legal attacks, the distrust and disgust were clear: Two men known for their ability to smoothly glide through life, with fashion and fabulous hair, looked strangely uncomfortable.

No one ever wants to sit in this position, leaving it to another man, federal judge or not, to declare whether he or she is a cheat or a fraud or a bully or a bum.

Here these two are though, going down that awkward path together. Their lives are seemingly too charmed for this, yet they were like a couple of rivals on opposite sides of the schoolyard, unwilling to even acknowledge the other's presence in front of onlookers.

The stakes seem higher for Goodell, if only because his legal argument here is based on the 1981 Supreme Court decision MLBPA v. Garvey, which essentially prohibits judges from interfering with the decision of arbitrators even if they are horrendously flawed or based on inaccurate facts. Arguing you have the right to be a dictator isn't ideal in public relations terms.

As such, Goodell and the NFL could certainly prevail in front of Berman but do so via a ruling full of the same kind of harsh verbiage that the judge used during two prior public sessions.

It's clear that no matter which way Berman goes, he looked upon the NFL's judicial system in general, and the league's conduct in this case specifically, as lacking any semblance of fairness or competency. He could unload in the ruling and leave Goodell laid out, even if he's technically victorious.

That's the risk Goodell was willing to take. And one Brady is willing to go with, essentially entering the verdict stage with a two-pronged chance at redemption – either total or at least in the court of public opinion. A loss and a four-game suspension would hurt, but he could at least point to an impartial federal judge down in New York agreeing that Goodell is out of line.

It's certainly reasonable that the NFL initially erred when it failed to comprehend Ideal Gas Law and thus initially thought any Patriots football that measured below 12.5 pounds per square inch of inflation was a sign of nefarious conduct. It immediately went after a speeding ticket like a homicide case.

But by the time the league should've have dialed it back, it had already leaked prejudicial stories and begun building a case against Brady and two Patriots locker room attendants. The NFL never was able to find a smoking gun or much more than suspicions, but that didn't matter.

The NFL not only never backed down, it just kept doubling down, believing the full force of the league's power – both in the CBA and in its ability to manipulate national reporters – would overwhelm Brady.

The league may be correct and on the verge of a show-of-force victory. It may be wrong and headed for a comeuppance.

It's all up to Judge Berman now. Who knows what he thinks and who knows what he'll rule. On Monday he seemed eager to make it known though as he sent the two men in fancy blue suits off into the Manhattan morning, Goodell via a black Escalade, Brady in a Chevy Suburban. Each is left awaiting his word.

The QB v. the Commissioner, it's all or everything now.

I can't imagine any scenario where the judge sides with the NFL considering the lack of evidence and the lack of precedent in such a matter. Previous equipment violations (which Brady's involvement hasn't even been proven) only resulted in a $25k fine.

If he decides with the Pats he's basically telling every team to go ahead and destroy evidence in the future and fail to cooperate. Ray Farmer should have flushed his phone.

Tom Brady Sketch Artist Gets Second Chance In Court

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.co...0&h=349&crop=1

The blame for any shortcomings on the part of the internal investigators cannot be placed on Brady's shoulders. If what is being released, that Brady was told he didn't need to turn over the phone is true, then the drama about destroying the phone can just stop.

Goodell went too far on this one. To give up one-third of your salary due to suspension for a slightly underinflated ball, when the opponent that reported you also has underinflated balls in the same game, is just ridiculous. Doesn't matter if you love or hate Brady it is just dumb.

How many times does this need to be repeated in these threads... he wasn't punished for the balls he was punished for his lack of cooperation.

The same number of times it has to be repeated that he claimed he was told the phone wasn't needed. Therefore, he did cooperate with the investigation.

I believe it was even acknowledged that Brady was told his phone wasn't needed.

I can. The NFLPA negotiated the current CBA and agreed to give the commissioner the power he has. He used that power, the NFLPA is now trying to argue against the CBA they agreed to.

IMO, he'll throw it out, maintaining Brady's suspension.

The data from the phone was needed.

Only idiots believe the "deflator" was a weight loss term.

Since the judge has to rule "all or nothing" I believe it will be nothing. If the penalty imposed by Goodell wasn't so severe then I would think there was a possibility that it would be upheld.

The judge isn't allowed to rule on whether or not the investigation was legitimate or if Brady's suspension was deserved. He's only allowed to rule on whether or not Goodell acted appropriately in regards to the CBA. Since the NFLPA decided to agree to a CBA that makes Goodell judge, jury and executioner, they don't really have an argument that will hold up.

The problem for Berman, Brady and the NFLPA is that the NFLPA gave the Commish the power to be judge, jury and executioner. It's all rather insane, but arbitration provisions and awards are granted EXTREME deference by the courts. Courts really want to empower arbitrators, not disempower them.

Amnorix should've made it a poll just to see which side everyone is on without all the in-thread bickering.

He cooperated pretty massively actually. Made himself available for interviews and turned over tons of emails (which of course later became public). He destroyed his phone only after he told them he would never get his phone, and indeed they had no right (under the CBA or otherwise) to get his phone.

And the phone destruction thing happened AFTER the punishment was handed down, IIRC.

And yet you want to make this all about the phone destruction, which is odd, because that's never what it was about to begin with.

Side note that nobody has ever been suspended for failing to cooperate before, INCLUDING THE KICKER, GOSTKOWSKI, who refused to turn over his phone IN THIS SAME INVESTIGATION!!

What are you expecting?

How many times does this need to be said that you are wrong -- the NFL has NEVER said that. NEVER made it clear that it was lack of cooperation that resulted in his suspension. Indeed, their lawyer said it was BOTH the deflation AND the failure to cooperate.

He may at that. It will be interesting to see what language he uses. He could uphold the suspension while crucifying the NFL. That would be quite a bit of fun to read, if that's the way it goes down.

if the judge pulls a stupid supreme court ruling and sides with Brady, Goodell can appeal. This is one simple reason why said judge is a complete idiot for hearing the case. Don't kid yourself, this judge is an idiot for even accepting the case.

The problem here is that our us vs them mentality will cause people to blame Brady or the Pats (who are cheaters of course) when the blame for ALL OF THIS resides with the NFL. This whole fiasco is a result of their ridiculous pandering to Peyton Manning and Brady in the first place. Then they did a slipshod job of "investigating" things. THEN they decided to issue a ruling based not on facts but on what would best play with the media.

This whole mess is on Goodell and the NFL.

IF Brady had just cooperated and not destroyed evidence, I'M absolutely positive Goodell would have lowered the suspension to maybe 2 games. This situation rests on Brady's shoulders more than the furer's shoulders IMHO.

I'm not an official Unfrozen Caveman lawyer but I assume the ruling will uphold the NFL's decision.

The judge seemed to be trying to instill some doubt in the NFL from the coverage I've seen. That makes me assume they have the much stronger case and he was trying to coerce them into being more willing to negotiate a settlement.

I won't be surprised with either result. I think Berman HATES what/how the NFL has done what it has done, but the law is pretty strong for the NFL. But Berman is pretty pro-labor, and if he isn't going to throw out this arbitration ruling, then there practically is no arbitration ruling that CAN be thrown out.

I suspects he overturns the NFL, vacating the suspension, and relies primarily on fundamental fairness (refusal to allow Pash to testify). If he really wants to go hog-wild, he could go on and on about Goodell's obviously lack of neutrality, which he can argue (though I doubt case law supports) means he is entitled to less deference than an arbitrator might get in other situations.

You can trust that the opinion is largely written already, and that whoever loses will definitely appeal. If Brady wins, the NFL appeal has a reasonable chance of succeeding at the Second Circuit. If the NFL wins, Brady's appeal is VERY UNLIKELY to succeed at the Second Circuit.

Note that I wouldn't bet a nickel on which way Berman will go. I suspect he WANTS to rule for Brady, but he might not find a way to comfortably do so, given how slanted the law is in the NFL's favor.

Hard to read tea leaves. I've seen federal judges (magistrates, typically) beat up one side because they were blind as to the weaknesses of their case. In other words, he was beating up the side with the weaker case.

But I've also seen what you're suggesting. Goes both ways, and generally the judge beats up on whoever is more unreasonably stubborn, in the judge's view.

There wouldn't even have been a situation if the NFL hadn't changed the rule on how footballs are handled... because Peyton Manning wanted it changed.

If Berman does this, Goodell can appeal. If Goodell appeals it will take months to resolve. The question is, can Brady still play or are the suspensions upheld?

I agree, and if you look at the pats turnover ratio before and after this rule change, it's significant which tells me Brady has been doing this stuff for YEARRRRRS!

There's no one stat that affects wins and losses more than turnovers. The Broncos, KC and the Pats all play in outdoor stadiums, look at the Pats turnover ratio compared to the Broncos and KC's turnover ratios since the rule change.

If Berman vacates the suspension, then it is gone. The NFL can then either appeal the ruling to the 2nd Circuit (which it is 99% likely to do), or follow some other course, such as no appeal, and move on (0.00000000000000001% chance of this) or try to fix the procedural mistakes and "do it again" in some fashion.

It would be pretty bright of them, I think, to turn to a neutral arbitrator (Tagliabue?) and have him handle it. Unlikely, however, given that the NFL is constantly engaged in proving they have the biggest dick, err, hammer, in town.

In this scenario, Brady will still be able to play until Berman's ruling is overturned or superceded in some fashion.

Worst case for Brady/Pats, is that the suspension is vacated, but then ends up only being delayed, and then gets imposed in December or in the playoffs or something. Nightmare result there.

Are you sure about this? I thought Goodell can simply uphold the suspension regardless how the court rules which is another reason that this dumbass judge should have never taken the case.

Except the stats you refer to aren't nearly as odd as that one article suggested, and, second, Jastrzemski is actually pretty new to handling the balls.

Plus all the evidence suggests that this whole inflation thing only blew up (pun intended) after the JEts game when the refs inflated the ball to 16 or whatever PSI.

I've never seen a coach harsher on players who fumble. Ridley's fumble rate wasn't even that bad, but he was repeatedly benched for it, and then ridden out of town.

Ugh. I deleted my post mocking you because you changed yours.

First, the judge can't NOT take the case. He doesn't get to just not take cases. Only the SCOTUS can do that.

Second, yes, I'm sure about this. Goodell could revisit the process and try to fix the procedure and possibly fix the issues that Berman cites, but if the penalty is vacated, then it's gone, and Goodell is sort of back to square one.
Or he can (and almost certainly will) appeal to the Second Circuit.

Here's an article explaining some stuff, of course, a Pats fan refutes it and then another guy at the end of the article backs up the stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate...07565-nfl.html

That old battle axe Berman better stick to the law and the ruling of the Supreme Court in 2001 and rule for NFL. Brady should not be allowed to cry and whine his way onto the field. 20 other players are doing their time like men. So should he.

The case had been decided by an arbitrator so yes, my understanding is the judge could have said, in essence, the case has already been decided by an arbitrator.

Please note: First, he actually decided to take the case on. That's rare enough when dueling parties have previously contractually agreed to allow disputes to be handled by arbitration. But rather than punting the case immediately, as I and other legal analysts figured would happen, Berman has tolerated multiple briefings and hearings, with more to come.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...iots-tom-brady

Looks like Joe Buck

Here to hoping the judge tells Brady to Joe Buck himself.

So why aren't you suggesting that the Colts and Falcons are cheating, based on this chart?

Those are dome teams you idiot.

Are you still waiting for the trial that he will conduct afterwards??

I literally couldn't care less.

You know they will rule in favor of Brady and a Union.


rules don't apply to professional football players


Even murders are running at about 25% iirc

Indoor... home... teams.... You know? Temperature controlled?

Bullshit.

This chart is completely worthless. It doesn't track fumbles, but rather fumbles LOST. Because the lucky bounce of who gets a fumble really matters for purposes of seeing whether the ball was monkeyed with. Yeah...no.

It would be good to know if that stat is just counting offensive plays (where the Patriots controlled the ball) versus special teams plays (where they do not), but we have no idea.

It also doesn't seem to factor in fumbles at home (where McNally and the needle supposed lived) versus the road (where he did not, and where the Patriots have less control over their environment. More on this in a subsequent post.

I don't see how the judge has any reason to interfere in this dispute.

If there is no proof of any guilt can he just use his power willy nilly?

Right, because dome teams clearly fumble less at home. Oh wait, except they don't. (You idiot).


Home-road fumble splits for selected teams (2012-2014)

Team Conditions Home Fumbles Road Fumbles
Saints Dome 17 20
Falcons Dome 24 14
Colts Retractable Roof 36 21
Rams Dome 30 27
Browns Bad Weather 25 15
Bills Bad Weather 35 31
Packers Tundra 22 20
Patriots Bad Weather 21 20
NFL Average Varying 26.0 24.2
Football Outsiders

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mble-advantage

Another point re fumble stats:


So I can give you ONE good reason why the Patriots fumble less -- Tom Brady (other than 2008) basically never missed a snap, and he's amazingly elusive in the pocket. He rarely fumbles, and the Patriots are really good on the C-QB and QB-RB exchanges. The consistency of having him there alone help explain (partly) the low fumble rate.

Which is also reflected in Indy's good fumble rates in the chart above. It's less the DOME, and more the existence (and consistent ability to show up) of one PEYTON MANNING. Falcons and Ryan, and Saints/Brees, is similar. It also explains why the Jaguars, Vikings, and other great weather and/or Dome teams AREN'T on the list.

Wow, didn't know this:

So sick of Tom Brady and the Patriots...

Last one.

wtf are you talking about? You have to fumble the ball to begin with in order to lose the ball by fumbling. The fact that the pats are the ONLY TEAM to play 50% of their games in Foxboro is enough evidence of something fishy going on.

That's a two year sample size. TWO YEARS.

Where is the link for this quote?

Where are you getting this info. from?

:facepalm:

I'm in Judge Bermans fantasy league, and he just drafted Brady. A sign??

:clap: :LOL:

Amnorix, can you read this sentence and tell me if it makes any sense to you?

All the same source as the first quote, sorry.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mble-advantage



And yes, only two years, but the most RECENT two years. Not like they cherry-picked data and presetned it in misleading fashion, like the Patriots-are-cheaters-look-at-this-chart site did.

Counting special teams play fumbles?! WTF?

Nope, it doesn't make any sense to me.


EDIT: Maybe teams average more snaps in home games than road games? That might be true. I have no idea... I wouldn't think it would be enough snaps to be statistically significant, but who knows.

Maybe you should create a fake 'scandal' and get them penalized so they have a harder time rapeing everyone...

Oh Wai...

Tugging Brady has no case. He was treated just like every other player. Effing bullshit.

Bullshit.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for equipment violations.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for failure to cooperate in an investigation.


That right there is actually a huge part of my problem with this. The Commish engages in cowboy justice, doing whatever the fuq he wants to whoever the fuq he wants for whatever fuqqing reason he wants. It's absurd.

They may have more snaps at home, but this guy is saying that fumbles happen at a higher rate because there are more snaps. That makes no sense.

Did you notice that the sentence that makes no sense was a quote from one of your posts? Does it concern you that the people you are quoting in your defense apparently are numbskulls who don't understand the difference between rates and occurrences, a distinction that is crucial to the topic at hand?

You've turned into a huge douchebag. I pray that someone changes your name again so you can stomp off in another fit.

judges have sided with Unions on almost every case, they don't give a single shit about the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Remember that judge forcing that kid in Texas to marry his girlfriend?


Completely against the law but Judges just do whatever they feel like

Yep. This is this guy's ultimate chance at the spotlight. Don't be surprised if he uses it as a soapbox.

No more than the Douchbag Patriot Nation

do whatever they want, whenever want ... everyone can **** off

Brady gutless coward
Front office covers his ass with bullshit lies
Entire fan base bleeds all over the place making up shit whenever it's convenience

Deflator name is from losing weight, complete bullshit
Brady doesn't know equipment managers, complete bullshit
Brady doesn't know what PSI is, total bullshit
Equipment managers wouldn't touch the footballs without specific approval from their QB

all this is more than enough circumstantial evidence to know Brady cheated


Aaron Hernandez was sent to jail for life on less


the judge will reverse the entire suspension ... i just hope karma is watching and Brady blows out his knee on the 1st snap of the season

And if he doesn't, the owners should rip up the CBA and negotiate something better suited for them since the players side doesn't feel the need to follow it. Look at Kam Chancellor in Seattle as exhibit B.

This is the third time you've brought this up. The judge told the guy he could serve his sentence for punching his girlfriend's ex boyfriend, or he could marry her and they'd forget the whole thing. Both the "kid" and his girlfriend were happy about it. Quit being stupid.

This is like an Alex Smith thread, but in drag.

If Brady wins, the Goddell sympathizing Brady hating meltdowns will be priceless.

That's the double truth, Ruth.

Anyone claiming the CBA gives Goodell all this power to do what he did and blah, blah, blah.... didn't read Kessler's brief. Goodell violated the CBA in many places. As usual, the devil is in the details.

There was not even enough circumstantial evidence on Brady even—not when other multiple scenarios are possible to explain points and there's even evidence Brady insisted the rule be followed regarding psi minimums. BUT this case is on the process including whether Goodell followed the CBA himself or used arbitraries.

You think the commish should be able to suspend anyone for any reason with no evidence? Is that your position?

No evidence? What a joke. The commish only needs reasonable suspicion and there was more than enough evidence to support that much at least for sure.

Brady is hiding something for sure and he deserves his suspension.