3.8 million is too expensive for a WR2?

Seems about right to me, if you give him somebody who can pass.

i cant wait for another month of training camp in august of how Jon Baldwin was making 1 handed catches jumping on trampolines over guys in shorts.

joy

He's not young anymore...productive WR's honestly aren't that hard to find. I don't think he sucks or anything but I do think they're gonna take a WR relatively high so that means someone is gonna be out...

That's a lot further along than anyone expected at this point.

i'm glad we are happy with 9 QB hurries and 0 sacks out of our first round draft pick.

that we like clap at that development/production. it's equal to that of a ****ing 4th round pick.

I think going from Romeo Crennel to Andy Reid is gonna help nearly every single offensive player we have.

you guys do realize Andy Reid also has really shitty players in offense, that some of our players can also equal to.

Jon Baldwin could very well be a Riley Cooper role (minus kick offs) in this offense. The difference being Riley Cooper was a 5th round pick and Jon Baldwin is walking that fine line of first round bust and could play himself out of the lineup and get buried on the depth chart pending if they draft or sign any more WRs not including the ones they already should (Bowe)

He's 29 years old.

There's no reason Breaston shouldn't be our WR2 next year, beyond Baldwin transforming into a good player.

The Dontari Poe pick is one of the few good picks Pioli made.

It is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to be this critical of Poe. We all knew the scouting report. We know what position he plays. He played as well as anyone could have expected. A long way to go, but further along than people thought. And his upside is tremendous.

He was pretty impressive for a guy that was learning technique on the fly and came from a small program. I have no problem with him, especially with us moving to more of a 1 gap system that should allow his mobility to shine.

Never liked Baldwin coming out of Pittsburgh.

I think the guy has a ton of work to do on route running and he has no desire to do it. And no, just because the guy loves to spend time in the gym does not mean that he cares about getting better.

Where was this mobility last year? Nowhere to be found. He was impressive on a very small handful of plays last year.

He's nothing at all until he shows a LOT more. He was the Jon Baldwin of NTs last year.

how dare we be critical of Poe when Fletcher Cox, who was picked RIGHT AFTER POE by Andy Reid, had 39 tackles 5.5 sacks and a forced fumble

how dare us want production like that out of OUR first round pick that played the same exact position in college as the guy picked by another team right after him.

Silly me for thinking we could get a first round pick that plays like a first round pick.

How "absolutely" ridiculous.

It's also ridiculous to say he has game changing potential.

Shit, so does/did Jon Baldwin.

I'll be happy with average NT play from him next year.

Fletcher Cox plays a 4-3 DT. He is playing pretty much the same position he played in college, and he came in a lot less raw than Poe did from a technique standpoint.

The Nose Tackle is a different position. It's a position that takes a much longer time to learn and isn't going to get you the same sexy statistics as a 4-3 DT.

So yes, in this case, statistics are for losers.

Jon got open a lot last year. We just didn't have a qb that could see more than a third of the field and get the ball to the open guy.

Geno showed that he is capable of attacking every section of the field equally and that means our second and third option will get action.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Baldwin and Breaston both have 700 yards each and Bowe to get 1300.

Pure speculation. We saw a handful of replays where he was missed, but beyond that, a very speculative idea that he was "open a lot."

Jon did not get open a lot last year.

Jon cannot stand up straight when he runs routes

Jon cannot beat the press.

Jon is not consistent to be getting consistent targets, by any QB good or bad

just as many times Jon Baldwin got open there was as many if not more times a 5'9 180 lb CB was sticking their hand in his chest at the line of scrimmage and totally making him go stank leg on his routes

Well, to be fair, the bar for Dlinemen picked in the top 11 in KC has been lowered by a slew of players.

I was never high on Baldwin. I loved the Poe pick from the start.

Baldwin's issues are difficult to fix. He runs shitty routes (which are more difficult to coach than people want to pretend) and he has a shitty on-field work ethic to want to get better. He's not coachable.

Poe's problems have largely been technique and they are easily fixable, but they will take time. And unlike Baldwin, he has the work ethic to get better. And Poe has a rare physical talent at nose tackle, which is he could become a rare every down nose tackle, which is INCREDIBLY valuable in a league where spread offenses are exposing 1-dimensional nose tackles.

That is the goal for DL in their second year in the NFL. Average play.

Third year is when they should shine.

Now, he will be learning completely new techniques again (going from 2gap to 1gap) hopefully that doesn't hold his development back...I LOVE the prospect of him playing a Jay Ratliff type role for us and think he could be the prototype for the position if the coaches find a way to translate talent into production.

Baldwin got open because nobody was paying attention to the deep route. Nobody cared. For his size, he's shitty at getting off jams. And he runs shitty routes. We had a QB that was spreading the ball well for a few games. Kyle Orton. Baldwin was a complete non-factor in those games.

Never liked the guy. Still don't like him. I think his only upside is that he becomes a good jump ball receiver. But I'd rather have a receiver who can run the entire route tree.

so when JJ Watt got 20.5 sacks and All Pro in HIS 2nd YEAR....

that's just "average play" expectations huh

Don't be obtuse.

All you're talking about is "Potential".

Potential is what gets coaches and GM's fired.

We are discussing what might transpire during the 2013 season, no?

Of course that includes trig to evaluate potential under changing circumstances.

wouldnt for one day you would like to HIT on a player/talent in this decade? Like have a d-line that exceeds your low end shitty expectations of marginal progress?

Have another Derrick Thomas or Neil Smith? Wouldnt you like to be one of those teams that hits on a player in the first round like that rather than wondering if your #11 overall pick is going to get his first sack in year 2 of his playing career so we can clap and cheer on his progression good for him yay!

wouldnt you like your low expectations of our positional talent/development, be raised? Wouldnt that be awesome than what you expect of players now you give a free pass?

Hey maybe Allen Bailey will learn how to beat a 1 on 1 block and not get blown off the ball, or Jalil Brown will know how to not go all Will Bartee and faceguard or that Jeff Allen wont get blown off the ****ing ball every play, but it's okay, he's changing positions, he gets a pass.

Dude, there is no ****ing way this team is pushing for the playoffs in 2013 with a rookie QB. There are far too many holes at STARTING positions, let alone questions on the defensive line, offensive line, WR and TE positions.

If the Chiefs win 6 games next year with a rookie QB, I'll be thrilled.

***** ****ed this team. Hard.

If you can't see top end potential from Dontari Poe after his rookie season, you are blind.

If Dontari is gonna be a 1 gap nose, he should be able to excel in that role.

11 out of 17 NFL.com guys thought we would win the division in 2012 because of the talent we had.

You thought so, too...as did I.

I think we had the NFLs worst combo of head coach and quarterbacks and that we are going from that to a top 5 coach in the league and will hopefully get good game manager play from our quarterback in his rookie year.

Romeo was Mr. I don't know and Cassel lead the league in turnovers even though he was benched before the halfway point.

I stick by my comment.

If we draft Geno and we field a defense that taps into the potential of the talent on that side of the ball, we will be in the 2013 playoffs.

The problem is that he showed almost no signs of being a top end player.

He was indistinguishable from Ron Edwards.

So why sit here and say he could be a "game changer?"

We have no way of knowing, and if he was a 5th round pick NO ONE would be saying it.

It's not that simple, because we're going through scheme overhauls on offense AND defense.

8-8 is our ceiling next season if all goes right.

Because even his biggest critics on CP said we won't know what we have in Poe in year 1.

Nobody has said Jeff Allen has tremendous upside, nor are they now. Nobody said that about Tyson Jackson -- everyone knew his ceiling was a Ty Warren guy who maintained his gaps but would never be a pass rusher. And nobody has talked about Bailey beyond being an interesting project.

Nobody is giving Poe a free pass. He exceeded expectations and continues to improve. Nobody is saying he's awesome or is a lock to be awesome. We're saying he's on the right track.

It's nice that Poe didn't completely suck. He was not the worst lineman in the league ala Tyson Jackson 2009.

To say he has game changing potential based on what he did in 2012 is completely false.

He could be a game changer because he has a rare talent. It is unusual for a guy his size to be able to play all across the line of scrimmage. Or to have that mix between speed and size and strength, as well as endurance. Everything that was wrong with him looks like technique. Fixable stuff.

He was better than Edwards. Poe was on most snaps Ron Edwards, but there were also plenty of snaps where he flashed his upside. He is much further along than we expected. More importantly, Edwards walked in ready to play the Nose. The Nose isn't just about physical ability, it's also a really challenging mental position. He deserves time. No reason to overhype him, but he's much further along than anyone expected. On CP, many were wondering if he should ride the pine until he learns the basics.

Ron Edwards once had 3 sacks in a season for this team.

He was never as bad as Poe was last year for us.

Shit, Ron Edwards 2010 season was pretty good. He was a valuable contributor on that defense.

You people are vastly overrating Poe. He enters his sophmore season with one goal: prove he isn't one of the worst 10 starting DTs in the game, because that's what he was last year.

http://i.imgur.com/eklSO.jpg

Interesting only 11 players on the top 30 of this list found themselves on playoff teams.

I really don't care how a veteran stacks up against a rookie we all knew had a steep learning curve ahead of him. Nor do I really care about how PFF stacks up a list of mostly 4-3 DTs to a 3-4 NT, all of which ranked very low according to your chart.

Nobody is overrating him. Nobody is saying he's going to be a beast... guaranteed. But there is plenty of reason to believe the upside is tremendous.

The only reason is his draft position.

As a rookie, he was very underwhelming. This is not up for debate. It is fact.

Perspective: Jerrell Powe had a better PFF grade than Dontari Poe last season.

Poe is dogshit until proven otherwise. **** "potential" talk.

I was wrong.

Albert was injured, Allen sucked, Hudson was injured, Asamoah was average and Winston was not much of an upgrade. Baldwin was a major disappointment, Breaston invisible, Boss was injured and Moeaki had the weakest return of the ACL Club.

Lewis was crap, Routt was crap, Silar was crap and of course, Dorsey and Jackson were non-factors. Bailey regressed, Pituatoa and Smith were underwhelming, as was Jalil Brown and Abe Elam.

If not for Jamaal Charles, this team would have been 0-16.

I'd regress, too, if Crennel was my head coach and Cassel/Quinn were the quarterbacks.

No. Tyson Jackson's was over-drafted because all of us knew, he had the upside of a guy who could handle the position, but never had the speed or raw strength to be a premiere 5-technique. Poe was drafted high because of his potential. He has elite speed and power and speed and endurance, and that wasn't just in the combine, that was seen on the field but didn't translate because of awful technique. Poe's upside is based on the very, very rare ability for a nose tackle to play across the line.

You can't say he was underwhelming based on fact just because PFF has a number out there. PFF doesn't consider the quality of snaps. I don't think they weight the difference between 3-4 NTs and 4-3 DTs, and they certainly don't account for scheme. Most importantly, they don't account for where Poe is expected to be in his development. What we all said in the beginning of the year, both critics of the picks and people who liked it, was that Poe was going to be a project and we'd be happy if he just saw the field. He did. He was generally not a liability and he flashed plays. That is better than what we expected from him.

LMAO

That's exactly what they consider, dumbass. They grade every snap.

Poe needs to show something next year before anyone says he has the potential to be a game changer. I don't give a **** about combine numbers, because Jon Baldwin had nice combine numbers, too.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...hiefs-week-11/
So much for your statistics, when the source providing you with your statistics is telling you not to read too much into them.

You seem to miss the main point.

Sounds like a guy with game-changing potential!

FYI, Dontari Poe graded below -1.0 in 3 of his 4 games to end the season. So much for consistency, eh?

Well see how Poe does this year in an attacking 34D. What a waste of another pick

I agree with this for the most part. Unlike most however, I feel that the new coaching staff can fix at least SOME of the suck. IMO, some of the suck was caused by scheme, terrible coaching, and zero accountability. I just don't think some people realize how pad Pioli ****ed this franchise over. The terrible drafts, the misuse of players on the roster, the inability to find competent backups at almost every position. If even some of that can be fixed, it helps a ton.

My hope is that a new QB, combined with stopping some players from continuing to suck will propel this team to 7 wins in the first season. Anything more than that is wishful thinking.

Here's what I would do, for the starters, for depth, i leave that to people who know a lot more than me.

Get 2 new QBs in the draft.
If Reid decides we need a WR, I am fine with that, but I also would like to give Breaston / Baldwin a year with a passing offense / real QB. Either way Breaston is gone after 2013, so grabbing another WR this year or next should be on the TDL. Sign Bowe, period.
I'd actually like to see a FA RB thumper brought in not named Hillis.
TE shouldnt be drafted, as I think that Boss/Mo are serviceable.
Franchise Albert to see if his back is good. I think they should get a center in FA just in case.

The d-line needs help, but we cannot afford to spend a 1st, or 2nd round choice to help. Look to FA. Same with the LB core, grab a ILB to play next to DJ.
If you dont take a WR in the 2nd round, it better be a CB.
I'd move Berry to FS and consider drafting a SS, but that's just my opinion.

I've seen enough of Succop. Bring a FAR into camp to compete with him
Sign MVP to a lifetime contract.

To be honest, some of the anti-Reid accusations this wave of iggles throws out are true... i've been mystified by many of the same calls over the years.

Throwing it on third and short too much, abandoning the run way too early... there IS an undeniable Martzian stubborn quality to him.

But he's a FAR better gamble than Kelly, tried and true, a list of qualified professionals to turn to a mile long under his arm... just like anyone in their profession, he's a day older and wiser, he wont make many of the same mistakes he used to, thats just the nature of a driven professional.

Even if he IS too pass happy at times, its FAR better than the sixth grader in a madden game plan we've had for so long... let him throw it for now, when it gets out of hand, KC will make its displeasure known.

"With a couple, three drafts..."

Jesus christ, some of you take a quote and just analyze it to death!

Read between the lines a bit instead of taking it at face value. He'll need time to find HIS QB, and build around him. That takes 2-3 seasons.

Come the **** on.

So...we've taken one QB in the last six drafts? lol is it any wonder why this team sucks at the QB position?

Love how Reid also basically said what we've known for a while now. ***** did not draft well at all. His draft picks were horrid, the only talent we've had on this team during his tenure was from the prior administration.

At least ***** is gone, as are his hopes for ever being an NFL GM again. I do think that Reid will build a winning organization here, and I also feel optimistic about Dorsey. I think one of the key things is the GM and HC working together. Hunt royally ****ed up by allowing Scott ***** the type of unregulated control he had. I think the coaching staff and front office here in KC are going to be ran MUCH better now than what we've been accustomed to.

poe did jack shit in a college in a pathetic league

he did jack shit last year...

by the standard of 'he wore a uniform' he was a great success

i don't see any nasty in him...which is crucial for a DL

but whatever, it costs nothing to say he's a great draft pick with awesome potential...so have at it

These are the only facts.

Well, Poe was brought in and basically told not to attack and play, but to think, then react. It's pretty hard to be a rookie, much less in that scheme.


When he was simply asked to rush the passer, I thought he looked pretty good.

I want some nasty!

No, that was the worst part of his game by far.

Well, **** it then.

i ****ing hate the poe pick

we institute a 3-4, then wait 4 years - while passing on raji and Cody [in the 2nd!!] - to draft a combine freak who did jack shit in college...at #11

embarrassing

JPP was a pick with potential...this was just a dumb pick

Well, Cody hasn't exactly lit the world on fire.

Poe has elite potential. Just needs to learn the craft.

Raji and Cody both suck. Shit...they might be worse than Poe or in the same tier as Poe.

based on what? measurements?

not based on anything he has ever done on a football field

cody's not great, but ravens had the 2nd ranked rush defense with him as starter in 2011...and he came in the second round

we'd be better off with either versus who we drafted in their place...

and both actually did something in college to merit being drafted

Yeah, and with Suggs and Lewis out this year, their rush defense was assfart.

Yeah, Poe is all about measurables at this point. He had some flashes last year, and I think the 1 gap system will help him, and for that matter, any other dlinman we bring in.

The 2 gap, IMO, is a stupid ass out of date system thats hard as shit to learn and correctly run.

That had 0% to do with Cody being a starter.

Stop it.

Elite is kicking the shit out of people at every level.

It's Jack Lambert diving into gravel in a touch football game.

It's Will Shields driving guys into the ground play after play.

It's Jared Allen getting drafted as a long snapper after destroying dudes every single game at defensive end.

You have it or you don't.

That's why I have faith in guys like Rod Hudson, Eric Berry, Justin Houston, etc.

They've kicked ass regardless and, given the chance, will happily relish knocking some pricks dick in the dirt.

However, if you haven't ever done it, it's a lot steeper uphill climb.

I guess the elite potential didn't really come accross as I meant it. Physically, he was everything you want.

Whether he can ever translate it, who knows.

And IMO, thats being elite. Never said Poe was elite.

that has 0% to do with reality

Some guys did need development to bring out that elite potential.

Are you really suggesting that Cody was the reason the 2011 Ravens defense was good? What about the previous 3 seasons when they also ranked 3rd in points allowed?

The Ravens defense was a machine. As long as Ngata, Lewis, Suggs, and Reed were healthy, it didn't matter what other players played with them. Hell, it didn't even matter what coach coached them. Something like 5 defensive coordinators came and went and they were still a top 5 defense year in and year out.

You or I could have been a starter on the Ravens defense in 2011 instead of Cody and it would have still been top 5.

What else is he going to say? Is he going to go full blown Rex Ryan on us and guarantee the SB? He might actually believe that the Chiefs are a playoff team waiting to happen but he isn't stupid enough to say that to SI at this point in time.

Sounds like a very intelligent answer. If he were to say we had the talent in place to win he would be crucified if we didn't. If he starts winning sooner it looks as if he's pulling off a hell of a coach up. Yeah, I'd imagine he doesn't want to wait three years to build a winner.

Get out of here with that shit. Cody was garbage this year. http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/r...,6000786.story

Poe was a good pick. He played 60+% of the snaps at the most demanding position in the game. Despite a steep learning curve, he was not a liability on the field, which is an accomplishment for a rookie (couldn't say the same for Tyson Jackson's rookie season). He didn't make plays, but he didn't blow them either.

I can understand not liking the pick. But trying to act like Poe was a disappointment is just plain ridiculous. He has a very, very long way to go, but he's miles better than what we thought he'd be this early on.

I wouldn't say he was a disappointment. He was a bit better than I expected him to be (total dogshit), but he wasn't good in any way.

The issue here is people saying he has great potential to be a game changer. That's a silly statement. Extremely silly. Stop that, it's silly.

He absolutely has the potential to be. Has he shown it? No. Does he have that potential? Absolutely, and a lot moreso than Cody and Raji did. And I was a guy who wanted Raji at #3.

He doesn't have the potential to be, because he has literally never shown it on a football field.

Jon ****ing Baldwin has more potential to be a game changer because at least he made a couple of big-time catches in his life.

Dontari Poe hasn't done shit in college or in the NFL. I don't give a crap that he ran a nice 40 in shorts. Being a 350-pound Vernon Gholston isn't impressive.