The 5 game Division series is a 2-3 format this year, I guess because of less travel time due to the WC game.

Stay classy braves fans

Ah yes ok, thanks.

You know what would have really been cool? If Matheny had ordered the pitcher to give up two intentional walks to load the bases and plate the lost run, then resumed normal play. Would have diffused the crowd and the controversy. And if the Cards had ended up losing, oh well.

I guess shit like that only happens in the movies and those silly sportsmanship commercials, though.

Crazy game and all that will be discussed is a call that did not directly effect runs being scored.

Hell I think it makes things even for the time being called after Loshe threw the pitch for the strike out right before the HR.

Book is even.

No way... Fox/ESPN loves your team.

No, they love RATINGS and MONEY.

Yes, the rule is whether and infielder has a play on the ball and clearly when he raises his hand Kosma is still chasing the ball...those things are always judgement, however right after the ump raises his hand, Kosma pulls off the play and Holliday is left flatfooted. If he raised his hand AFTER Kosma pulled off the play it would have been a bogus call.

Wrong

Good lord, have you ever played the game?

I was on the 11th row from the field tonight at the game. someone from the upper deck threw a full sealed water bottle whizzed right between my and the wifes head.

I was already getting a bunch of shit from a couple of drunks. We were a little worried about our safety. There was no security or even usher sin sight. It got real ugly.

I was 11 rows off the field. The play happened right in front of us. Kozmo is yelling I got it, I got it and waving his arms. The ump calls the infield fly. Kozmo thinks its Holliday calling him off. The ball drops and shit starts raining down on our heads. We got drenched with beer flying out of the bottles on the way to the field.

Yes. Not sure that is a routine ball. Just because it's a ball that should, in the end, be caught, doesn't make it fit under "infield fly". Not to mention there is nearly zero chance of pulling off a double play from there. On top of that no way the call was made in "reasonable time". Was called in the last 5% of time the ball was in the air.

Either way I don't care too much. Cardinals got a really rough break early in the game. I just don't think any part of the rule was interpreted correctly. It is my personal opinion, based on nothing except watching the ump that made the call, that he regretted the decision he made. As the broadcast mentions, the ump is almost never looking at a play like that from that angle in a regular season game.

The way it was explained to us is that the ball doesnt have to be on the infield for the call to be made, just that an infielder is in total control of the fly ball and could drop the ball to double up the other team.

I agree with that description. I just don't think either happened. Not "TOTAL" control and certainly not being able to drop it for a double play. Granted it took a second for them to pick up the ball, but they didn't even have a play at third. Both runners were halfway. There is no way, save for falling down, that a throw was going to be made to third then second in time to get both forces.

If the infielder was in total control the ump ideally wouldn't have made the call at the last second. The last second call, right decision or not, also makes it a poor infielders fly call.

About took off my or the wifes head. That aint cool.

I dont know how it played on tV but the stadium was upset with the call at 1B that hit the runner. People were pulling up the replay on their smartphones and saying it was a bogus call. I just saw it on TV. It was the right call. The player intentionallly ran out of the baseline to take away the throwing lane on the pitcher. Against the rules and an automatic out and dead ball.

They were upset about the 3 errors. They were upset with all the Cardinal fans in the stadium. Pissed at all the season ticket holders that sold their tickets to us.

Then the "infield fly" happened. The Cardinal women were truly concerned for their safety.

At the local section I was in, I had to deal with a drunk who couldnt understand why ATL wasnt beating the lowly Cardinals. Real mouthy the whole game.

Right before the home run that Holliday hit, he was yelling at Holliday to go back to Colorado if he wanted to hit a home run. This is the South, your not hitting one here, there is no thin air here in the South. After the home run I turned around and told him that the air seems find to me. He became enraged, threatening me. I just ignored him the rest of the game and his other buddies calmed him down.

Where were the ushers? You dont have ushers at the games?

Cobb Galleria area. 4 star hotel. Went and took a shower to get the beer off us and then, the sauna, hot tub, pool. Then to the bar and some blue moons.

all in all, a damn good day. :thumb:

I understand what happened now. you don't really see this from field level but check it out. Apparently Turner Field had been redone and the umps definitely got the INFIELD fly rule right.

http://i.imgur.com/O4yEq.jpg

Thank God for Harold Reynolds.

If anyone is still losing their minds over this call, try to find his explanation of it on MLB network where he shows that exact call being made in a very similar situation in a regular season game. Starlin Castro floated out that far into the OF and as soon as he settled under it, the umpire put the hand up. Castro caught it so it was no big deal, but it was a virtual carbon copy of yesterday all the way up to the out being called.

The rule reads simply: If an infielder can make the play with ordinary effort, as soon as it's apparent, the umpire makes the immediate infield fly call. He has no discretion not to make the call as the rule clearly reads shall make the infield fly call.

The only question was the ordinary effort and when Kozma camped under it and put his hand out (a universal 'got it' call by a camped IFer), it became an ordinary effort play and the umpire immediately put his hand up. Ordinary effort doesn't mean 'routine', it means he could do what a SS would do under ordinary circumstances and make the catch. When someone says "just because it should be made doesn't mean it's routine', they're exactly right...and that's why the rule reads the way it does. "Should be made" is the standard as written, not 'routine'.

The timing gripe is wrong - it has to be immediate upon the OFer getting camped, not immediate upon impact.

I understand Braves fans frustration and I'd probably be there with them, but I don't see any other way to read that rule folks. Reynolds agreed.

This was a 'tuck rule' situation - it was the right call of a flawed rule.

Which is wasn't.

Spot on.

How do you figure? As soon as Kozma camped under it, put his arm out and set his feet under him, Holbrook punched out the runner.

Holbrook got unlucky here in that as soon as Kozma set his feet, he inexplicably moved forward, but Holbrook had no way to know he was doing that when the call was made - how could he?

Hell, if anything, being more deliberate on the call could've prevented the teeth gnashing because he wouldn't have ended up making it. In the end, the 'immediacy' of the call as soon as Kozma appeared to be setting his feet and camping under the ball is what led to the controversy.

I can't deny my bias here, but I really think they got this one right (and I know they got the baserunner interference call right). At worst, this call off-sets the 2-run bomb that Ross hit after the umpire foolishly gave him a late time call.

Here, just watch this:

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Reynolds does a great job explaining this.

I suggest you watch the play over and over again. He doesn't signal for infield fly until Kosmos is bailing back to the IF.

You found the 1 guy on earth who agrees with the call and call it gospel.

The rule was put in place to protect the offensive team from the defensive team purposely dropping the ball and turning a double/triple play.

No way was that an infield fly rule. Even the Castro one shouldn't have been called IF fly. It's a flawedly written rule. That doesn't make it a right call. Both of those plays were the OFers ball. How the **** is it possible for that to be an IF fly?

Holy shit, the mouthpiece for MLB's own MLB network agrees with the call? It's pretty clear that MLB is circling the wagons hoping it'll go away. All because they don't want to change the postseason schedule.

Read the rule, watch the video, dipshit.

He's right.

There's no way you can substantively refute what he has to say there - the damn play is broken down frame by frame.

And for what it's worth, Reynolds is often extremely critical of MLB and the like on the network. He's by far and away the most knowledgeable guy out there right now when it comes to talking baseball.

Because that's what the rule says.

If you want to argue that the rule is written poorly (it is), fine. But as written that's the way that call goes. Infield fly is called on the outfield all the time because the rule is written to allow it (in fact, it mandates it).

He doesn't get his arm all the way up before Kozma starts forward, but he clearly starts his call right when Kozma sets his feet. Just how quickly do you need him punching at the air when that call is made?

One has to define "ordinary effort" first. To me, and virtually everyone else on the planet besides you, Reynolds, and the dumbass ump that made the call seem to think an IFer going that deep into the OF to make a play is ordinary.

I don't expect MLB refs/reps to throw their colleague under the bus.

Trying to make an argument for an IF fly when the ball should have been caught by the OFer is just ignorant, imo.

And there it goes! Towering fly ball to deep left field! OH WAIT! THE OUTFIELDER FELL DOWN! THE OUTFIELDER FELL DOWN!!! HERE COMES THE SHORTSTOP!!! Back, back, back. At the track... INFIELD FLY RULE!

And the ump in the Castro game, and the ump in other regular season games. Hell, they'll do that in softball games.

It is ordinary. That ball gets hit in a roughly similar spot probably 10 times/day during the regular season and 90% of them get caught easily. It's not a difficult play for the IFer to make at all.

When they happen with any degree of regularity, they are by their definition 'ordinary' plays requiring 'ordinary effort' from the player in question.

Kozma was standing under a falling baseball with his feet under him and his arms out for the call. At that point, his position on the field was immaterial - he was an IFer that was going to catch the baseball using ordinary effort.

Done - IF fly is called.

The people that are mostly loudly criticizing this call are the idiots like Rosenthal that didn't actually know the IF fly rule when they lost their shit (you are in the same boat, BTW). The folks that said "it's on the OF, how can it be an IF fly?" are just flat ignorant of the rules but they were so damn vehement in their objection that now they feel compelled to own it.

The guys that looked like idiots last night were not Sam Holbrook or Verducci, it was brain surgeons like Ripken and Rosenthal that didn't bother learning the rules before they started attacking them.

But go ahead, keep on defending a position you took born of ignorance. You're doing a fine job of it now that you're parsing out thousandths of a second when trying to determine if Holbrook got his had up 'immediately'.

You'll still find some dumbasses to argue with this.

I don't need to defend anything.

Damn near every talking head doesn't agree with the call. You on the other hand... Keep on trollin.

Didn't know Golden Tate posted on this board.

Wow, MLBs worst nightmare with a 1 game playoff. A single controversial, disputed call ruins a teams entire season. Fail MLB. fail.
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It technically may have been the correct call but you never actually see it GET called. A hundred balls a day drop in between the IF and OF and the runner gets on safely. This might be the first time Ive ever seen that

Eh, people are talking. Not just die hard baseball fans.

The infamous "infield fly" ball landed 225 feet away from home plate. That's approximately 100 feet beyond the distance from home to 2nd base, about 33 yards, or about 23 yards beyond Cassels maximum range for an accurate pass. Previously, the longest IF fly ball that wasn't caught landed 178 feet away from home plate, can't confirm if it was called by an outfield umpire.

In 3 days nobody outside of Atlanta will give a shit about the call. Bad calls are part of the game. Nobody was going to score on that play so there is no way to tell how it would have ended, unlike the 85' WS.

You are arguing whether the rule makes sense. He made a call anyone who has either played or watched baseball regularly have seen called a thousand times. It sucks because Holliday and Kosma both screwed up, it doesn't change whether the rule can be applied.

LMAOLMAOLMAOLMAO

Go ahead and point me in the direction of those thousands of infield fly calls that have been made that deep in the outfield.

I'm sure you just watch/play more baseball than me, though. Which is why I'm the only one making a big deal out of that blatantly horrible call.

I think you need to read the rule again. If the situation arises and the infielder can make the play reasonably, its infield fly rule.

And of course, look who's still bitching about it.

1. Butthurt Cub fan
2. Butthurt Dodger fan
3. Lowlife Kansas shitbag who celebrates when people in St. Louis die in accidents on the off chance that they might be Cardinal fans.

The rule requires a level of common sense, common sense that is apparently lacking in Cardinal homers on this board. The rule was put in place to protect the offensive team from the defensive team intentionally dropping the ball on a short fly ball and turning a double/triple play.

Nothing about that ball was worthy of the infield fly rule which is why you didn't see the ****ing infield umps raising their hands signaling for the infield fly rule. The 3rd base ump was getting back into position to make a call at 3rd on the chance of a throw and then he sticks his hand up when he sees the outfield ump ruling for infield fly, puts it back down, and then back up. He probably had a "wtf?" moment as well when he first put his hand up.

Not butthurt. I knew the Cubs were going to be terrible. They are in a few year rebuilding phase after their failed attempt to buy a WS.

I was bitching about the same call made against the Packers. Guess I'm a butthurt Chiefs fan aswell... wait...

I hate seeing shit like that. It ruins the game. No reason that call shouldn't have been overruled on the field and the game played on with 1 out and the bases loaded.

LMAO I'm not butthurt about it

Yeah, not you. Not ever. :LOL:

In my opinion its a touch beyond ordinary effort, and I also am not sure I agree with your interpretation of "immediate infield fly call". Either way I am not going to lose any sleep over it. My team plays tomorrow afternoon.

I haven't seen anyone on here who said he should have made the call. He is justified in making it however based on what was happening at the time. It doesn't matter where the infielder is at the time. If he is under the ball, the umpire can in his judgement throw the arm up to signal it is likely a catch and runners move at their own risk.

That's one of my issues with it. Part of the rule is calling it in reasonable time. Calling it when its 20 feet from the ground doesn't give the runners the ability to make a decision based on the rule. As anybody that has run the bases knows, at that point in the decent of the ball you are half way and leaning one way or the other. The call came too late for a runner to make decision based off of "infield fly rule" instead of based off the actions happening in front of them.

Haters are going to hate. ATL committed 3 unforced errors. How many did Texas commit? It's a trend. Other teams have a hard time dealing with the pressure and crack.

We have not been favored in a series since 2004 when we got our asses handed to us by the Red Sox.

Look at our team. We are not suppose to win. We are written off as not worthy. But we hang in there, we scrap, we don't give up, we play a good brand of baseball. It's a damn good team to be a fan of and some of those haters just wish their team played like the Cardinals.:thumb:

Very cool, went that way home. Thanks for the tip. It was beautiful. I'll give you some slack for your fellow fans almost taking my head off with a bottle of water and drenching me with beer.:p

From the STL paper today about a Cardinals fan reaction if it happened to them............

Had that same call gone the other way, against St. Louis, Cardinals fans would be apoplectic. And they've thrown things before, 1998 to be exact. Remember that sunny Saturday late in the '98 during the famous Home Run Derby between Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa?

When McGwire got ejected in the first inning for protesting a called strike, Cardinals fans suspended their usual class and manners and began throwing souvenir seat cushions onto the field. The following night, legendary broadcaster Jack Buck stepped to a microphone near home plate to remind Cardinals fans that they were better than that, and should make that clear by treating the umpires with respect. When the umpires walked onto the field to start that Sunday-night game, they received a standing ovation at the old Busch Stadium.

And the umpire that made the call on McGwire?

You guessed it: Ol' Sam Holbrook. (same guy who called the infield fly)