Silly argument about paintings
 

I am at work today and I was talking to my co-worker about "The Scream", which sold at an auction for nearly 120 million dollars. Anyway, I referred to it as a painting, and he quickly corrected me "IT'S NOT A PAINTING, IT'S A PASTEL!". Which is correct, it is a pastel. But isn't a pastel still a painting? I looked up "painting" and it says Painting is the practice of applying paint, pigment, color or other medium to a surface (support base).

I also found a billion videos of artists using pastel crayons (or whatever they're called) and referring to their work as "paintings" like this one for example
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DLBPUD7BLCI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So no, it isn't a painting in the literal sense that it was painted with paint and a brush, but is it still wrong to refer to it as a painting?

It's a pastel painting. Get your co-worker fired. You don't need to put up w/ that shit.

I can't wait to see the CP Intelligentsia's take on this highbrow subject!

I presented all my evidence to him and it still wasn't good enough. So he then told me I'm a moron that knows nothing about anything except Doritos and video games. I guess because he's 52 and I'm 28? I don't know. He thinks because he went to art school 30 years ago he's the expert on art.

Challenge your bitch ass coworker to a bat fight...

I'm not sure. If an artist uses colored pencil, has he/she created a drawing or a painting?

One thing I get sick of as a music scholar is the way people use the word "song". If you like the intense part of the Inception soundtrack, then no, you don't like that song. It's not a ****ing song.

Songs are sung. If this were a century ago, it would refer to the chanson tradition in France shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire, in which a solo singer would sing a poem according to form fixes, or a certain combination of verse/refrain with repeating melodic stanzas. Accompaniment was optional. That's a tradition that was followed up all the way through the 19th century in everything- even common folk songs.

The definition changed and evolved throughout the 20th century to embody all types of sung musical works. But that's the qualifier: singing.

If you want to talk about the Hans Zimmer soundtrack, it's an awesome PIECE you're listening to. It's not a ****ing song.

Knowing very little about this style of art, having just read a little bit, I'd probably have to agree with your coworker. That definition you gave in the OP is overly broad and could apply to someone using charcoal or crayon, and I'd be hard pressed to call that a painting. Art, sure. Painting, not in my book.

Just my 2 cents.

:shrug:

Here is why.

I do pastels, but when you tell someone that, their first thought is 'homo' so I just say I paint, which is true as I do watercolors also.
I think pastel painting is fine, but to me paintings have to use a brush.

But many do refer to pastels as paintings, especially if they are good size works.

He sounds like an old angry prick though.

So how much are baristas making to stand around these days?

He's just jealous of your mad gaming skillz.

FYP

So why do so many artists who use pastel sticks refer to their work as paintings? Why?

Stab him.

Does it involve a brush?

Problem solved.

Does finger painting involve a brush?

Well finger painting involves 'paint', so that one seemed kinda self-explanatory.

Your co-worker sounds like a arrogant douche with a rage complex. He wouldn't happen to go by the nickname Milkman, would he?

I think they use it interchangiably with a portrait on how it started and everyone went with it. Still think there is a size issue also on when you can call it a painting or portrait.

Tell him when he can afford it then he can define it for you, until then **** off.

No one looks good in pastels.

So it has to involve a brush or paint? I couldn't paint my girlfriend's face with cum just by spraying it?

After the fact, would you refer to her face as a "painting?"

A face painting perhaps...yes.

Is fish meat?

Pastels are technically paintings... your coworker is an ignorant blowhard and needs to go back to art school.

Is a watercolor a painting? Is a fresco a painting? The answer is YES.
Pastels are exactly the same as the above.. just that the pigment is in a different medium.

Tell your coworker to SUCK IT.

I bet that nance owns an iMac.

So that's what The Scream was all about...

He's now saying if it isn't liquid paint, it isn't a painting.

Peyton Manning

Peyton Manning

So at this point, he is just making up his own definitions. What about resins or pastes?

The fact is that the International Association of Pastel Societies and The Pastel Journal define pastel artwork as paintings. Case closed.

From one of their sites... http://www.pastelinternational.com/
A pastel is a pastel and it is also a painting... just like a watercolor is more specifically a watercolor but also a painting.

There's a lot of places that define pastel artwork as paintings, but that isn't good enough for him. "There's a lot of idiots on the internet."

tell your coworker that he's a douchebag for even bringing such a stupid thing up

Ha, "idiots" like three of the largest organisations/publications related to that particular medium?

How about the Pastel Society of America? (oldest Pastel society in America) Which states... http://www.pastelsocietyofamerica.or...stelmedium.htm
Oh and what about this group... The Society of Painters in Pastel (founded in 1885)

So by that definition it would make me wrong, since "The Scream" isn't completely covered is it? I don't know...either way I'm still calling it a painting and **** him if he doesn't see it that way. I don't mind being wrong about that particular painting, but I'm at least going to be right in that there are such a thing as "pastel paintings", which he claims is wrong.

No, it is completely covered. And even if it wasn't...it doesn't have to be COMPLETELY covered... just a vast majority.

Also.. if you are wrong about the Scream.. then he would have to admit it is a Pastel Sketch? I doubt ANYONE would call it a sketch or drawing.

Its a Piece of crap he doodled it out in 20 minutes and there are actually several versions of the same piece of crap he did.

It is probably the worst art work of all time actually and the price they paid just to prop up their new art musuem is a joke.

A lot a great paintings have nultiple iterations.

I just don't understand it. This is why I tend to stick to sculptures and figures when I go to museums. I don't understand the appeal in paintings like these and many others. There was a painting at the Nelson Atkins museum that was literally just random squares and rectangles. It kind of pissed me off that some people consider that great art.

Cassell sucks/CP

I am not a fan of impressionist paintings. To me a good painting is if I was looking at a picture. Like the paintings our Neice's husband does. He gets $20k-$30k per painting...

technically it's not a painting in my book, it's a pastel, but i would never jump any one's shit for calling it a painting, especially if, like Icarus, they didn't even know.

i painted my avatar.

:spock:

I'm curious. Do you call oil paintings... um... oil?

:p

It's just a shame Bob Ross is deceased, he could have settled this dispute. :(

not to be contrary..but TECHNICALLY it is a painting. Just like a watercolor is a painting... or a fresco or (insert other medium here). The difference between a painting and a drawing(sketch) is not the medium... it's more about the form.

At least that's the case according to the various "experts" and Websters.

you're absolutely right on all counts.

that's why i made sure to write "in my book". in my head i can refer to it as a "pastel painting" no problem, or even just a "painting", like other people, but it will never be "painting painting" because it was done in pastels.

there's nothing wrong with throwing all mediums together in casual conversation, but museums always make sure to describe them to a T next to their listings. i'm like them in that i'm super particular about making sure of exactly what's what.

Technically Paintings are considered oil paint only in fine art.

Watercolor, pastel, chalk, gouache and pencil / pen are drawings.

Confirmed.

Not really.

Yes, Oil paintings are the ones you simply call "paintings", the rest are "insert medium" paintings. Watercolor paintings, pastel paintings, etc etc So I see where you are going with this... but they are NOT considered sketches/drawings. Well, not automatically some can be drawings or sketches or paintings.

Once again... drawing versus painting has little to nothing to do with the medium! I can't stress this enough.

you are totally right, don't let the art snobs get you worked up, we'll do that.

if the traditional definition is true, only oil painters are painters, acrylic and watercolor painters are "drawers" - and that's not right.

Actually, my brother, who also works with my co-worker and I at our trophy shop, feels it is a drawing. He got caught listening to this dumb argument all day. Now the little shit is registering here. Be sure to welcome him with a big middle finger.

He found this on the internet and thinks that makes it NOT a painting, though I feel it's just a writer trying to explain to the public that it isn't a traditional painting done with brush and oil paint, though it's still technically a pastel painting. The pigments used to make pastels is the same exact pigments used to make oil paint...

Munch's "The Scream" achieved another milestone: It now ranks as the most expensive drawing publicly sold. For this version of “The Scream” -- one of four -- is best described as a crayon or pastel drawing, not a painting, on board. The Munch Museum in Oslo owns a pastel as well as a painted version, while the National Gallery of Norway holds the earliest painting, dated 1893.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...,3775078.story

The end of this argument should have been when it was shown that there are 3 or 4 societies that have been around for many years that are dedicated to this medium... and they define it as pastel painting. (unless of course you use pastels to make a drawing... which this is not)

yes, it is not an OIL painting... it is still a painting just like a watercolor is.

Modern art sucks. That's all I can really contribute to this topic. The Scream is a cool painting or pastel or w/e

Yeah lol, I emailed an art instructor at San Diego Art Institute this:

Me: Is it wrong to consider the pastel version of "The Scream" a painting? I know it isn't a traditional painting, made with paint and a brush, but aren't pastels still referred to as paintings? Does a "painting" have to be made strictly with paint? Can't a painting be made with pastel, resins, or pastes?

He responded with this:

Him: You are correct a “painting” can be created from a number of different materials and does not strictly need to be made from paint- it can also be colored pencils, chaulk pastels, oil pastels, and even collage or any combination of the items.

I bet that still won't be good enough though.....:shake:

*AHEM*

According to this definition from Merriam Webster Dictionary Online, a pastel is a drawing, but is a drawing a painting?

Definition of PASTEL

1
: a paste made of powdered pigment ranging from pale to deep colors and used for making crayons; also : a crayon made of such paste
2
a : a drawing in pastel
b : the process or art of drawing with pastels
3
: a light literary sketch
4
: any of various pale or light colors
See pastel defined for English-language learners »
See pastel defined for kids »
Examples of PASTEL

She has a collection of pastels.
She prefers a pastel like light yellow.
The room is painted in a pastel shade of blue.
Origin of PASTEL

French, from Italian pastello, from Late Latin pastellus woad, from diminutive of pasta
First Known Use: 1662

lcarus, did you ever get out from under your old man's thumb and your meddling brother at that crappy trophy shop you work at? Your resume looked great and I'm sure your life will improve when you're no longer working alongside your loser family.

Lol. I am his brother and I am far from a loser. LMAO. Too funny that he gets on here and complains about his life. He does need to do something about it ROFL

A pastel can be a drawing.. it can also be a painting. Drawings and paintings are NOT defined by the medium they are done in. PERIOD. Jesus. How hard is this to understand.

if you can create it on an interstate over pass...
it's a painting

Just to be absolutely clear on this... You can make a DRAWING with oil paints and a PAINTING with colored pencils. Yes, MOST of the time a "dry" medium is used for drawing and a "wet" one for painting... but that doesn't DEFINE the terms. Hell, can you draw and paint on a computer? YES. Please inform me what the difference in medium is there?

I am using the guy at works arguments. I work with that guy as well as Icarus. He is trying to be specific and it is failing. Its not hard to stand up for something you know is right or wrong, but this clown can not admit he is wrong. Luckily for me, I have a job interview tomorrow at 3. So I will be the hell out of there probably and won't have to deal with the clown, my d-bag brother, or my "loser family".

Good luck on the interview!

Thanks. I don't need luck. I have had like 6 call backs on my resume, but I have a degree and almost finished with my Bachelors in game design. I wish Icarus would get off his ass and start submitting his god d@ng resume to places instead of complaining about work or arguing about what classifies as a painting. Who cares who is right or wrong? I got an idea, get a new job and get the hell out of there and you dont have to deal with the clown. In my opinion about "The Scream" (pastel, 1895). If I look at it closely, it looks like someone drew the piece with a crayon. If that makes it a painting, whatever, if not, whatever. Munch used a pastel crayon and applied the pigment onto a dang piece of paper, so I hope whatever my brother is trying to prove is worth the time. IMHO, this clown we work with is not worth the time to prove anything to. The end.

I threw him under the bus on purpose because I thought it was funny. But 90% of that post was fabricated for your benefit.

I gotcha. He needs to get off this forum for a change and submit his resume. I mean seriously, my brother and this d-bag argued for like 6 hours today over some stupid ugly painting. Think about how many applications and resume submissions you can do in 6 hours. I told the clown at work, "Munch used pastels to draw the painting on a board." And he said "It's not a painting though." And I was like, "FML!" So I guarantee you tomorrow I am going to have to sit there as a neutral party tomorrow listening to what is or isn't a painting for another 8 hours. I may kill one of them. However, by law of family, I can't kill my brother and feel good about it, so that leaves one bullet for the ginger oaf.

The 10% that was true was the part about the loser brother. He's told us all about you and your pile of crunchy tube socks.

I don't own tube socks, however I do have crunchy socks. Mainly because they are convenient when you dont have a paper towel or proper cleaning cloth around. Socks are abundant, easily washable, and already smell of stank anyways. However, the crusty is only the tears from a headache that was caused by listening to an argument over freaking paintings. I have sex with my wife all the time, but when things get a little lonely, there is always a sock laying around. :holdman:

dude. you work with Donger?

Yeah well contemporary art kinda sucks. It's a bunch of pretentious appreciators with no talent saying "Oh yes, this shows so much anger and disarray!" and it's just a bunch of feces flung onto a flour taco shell.

I'm really torn on the definition of painting, and also on the family rift between lcarus and his brother. So I'll offer an unrelated art story.

I went to a contemporary art museum last week while traveling. I like creative contemporary art, but this stuff was not creative. It was things like a video of a guy doing various combinations of finger raising, and there was one painting that was a poorly executed white paint smeared on a canvas with a poorly executed blue circle in the middle of it. It was just bad.

There was one quote by one of the "artists" and my wife and I both found it quite amusing. The guy said, "I am an artist, and I have an art studio. Therefore, anything I create in my studio is art." We both had the reaction of 'not so fast there, buddy'. I can't remember what his specific creation was, but I remember it being quite unremarkable.

I'd say if its done with chalk pastel, it's a drawing. If it's done with oil pastel, it's a painting.

I showed him the email from the SD Art Institute guy, and he still thinks it's wrong. At this point, he's just in denial. He also brought in a bunch of his "art" to prove that he went to art school and did artwork. LOL.

He says common sense would tell you that it isn't a painting since it isn't done with paint and it isn't painted. I said that pastels are made from the same pigments that oil paint is made out of, it's just in a different medium, and also that a wise artist once said "drawing is painting is drawing"...or something of that nature. Because really, when you draw with a pen or pencil, you're just painting ink or lead onto a surface with a device.

No, you're a loser. A giant one. A douche also. :evil:

Whether a "pastel" is a "painting" is a moot point. They're both "art", and that can be anything from the Mona Lisa to a dude who plops a crucifix into a jar of piss. Art is subjective. It's painting, drawing, sculpting, kinetic, macaroni glued on construction paper, architecture, whatever the **** you want it to be. IIRC the Mona Lisa is painted on a wood board. Some of Rembrandt's most expensive works are tiny pencil sketches. A one-sheet poster for the original "Frankenstein" movie is a giant lithograph done with machinery, and yet some consider it "art" enough to make it a million-dollar poster. Some of the most expensive modern "art" is indeed actual painting, but it's nothing more than a red circle with a yellow line through it (which some stuffed-shirt will tell you encompasses "man's insignificance" or some other total bullshit).

Hell, personally I expand the definition to include objects constructed for films, such as the sci-fi props sold on the TV auction show "Hollywood Treasures"; if a master craftsman sculpts a monster, and it's a one-of-a-kind, and it's used in a film, why isn't that "art" any more than the Mona Lisa?

painted pony
warpaint
paint the town
let me paint you a picture

painting is art....the medium or form of application is irrelevant.

looks like a 3rd grader painted it .....

Just got off the phone with the Pastel Society of America. I also just spoke with the president of the International Association of Pastel Societies. I know, I took this too far. Here is what they both said almost word for word.

"The medium does not matter. It is still a painting. If the work covers the whole canvas, which The Scream does, then it is a painting. Ask your friend if he applies oil paint to a canvas with an exacto knife if it is still called a painting, or is it a knifing? The pigment that is in Pastels is the exact same as the pigment in oil paintings. If a pigment is being applied to a surface, it is considered a painting, no matter the medium, wet or dry, hard or soft."

I think that is pretty much case closed. She also went on to say that it is not wrong to call it just a "Pastel", but to say it is not a painting is wrong.

So what's it called if the work doesn't cover the whole canvas? Call her back if you have to.