ChiefsPlanet

ChiefsPlanet (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/index.php)
-   Nzoner's Game Room (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Life Parental Advice- Re: Xbox 360 (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=269693)

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:14 PM

Parental Advice- Re: Xbox 360
 
Alright, my 11 year old son said a friend of his "gave" him his copy of Black Ops 2, because he thought he had lost it... got another copy and gave this other copy to my son.

I don't want my kids playing these violent video games, as it is, so I wouldn't buy this game for him.

Well, my son's friend's mom just called me and told me that they couldn't find the game anywhere... and they last remember playing it when my son was there.

My son then changed his story when confronted, saying that he was "borrowing" it and that his friend said that he could.

This is the third instance of him grabbing something that doesn't belong to him. He used my stored credit card in the XBOX to buy a bunch of credits to download games about 7-8 months ago. He took a gold peace sign necklace from my mom about 4 months ago. And now this.

So, should I sell the XBOX 360 or not? My instinct says yes. What say you?

TL;DR my son stole something for the 3rd time in the past 8 months, should I sell the XBOX?

Buehler445 02-04-2013 06:16 PM

Be it noted that I don't have kids.

But I would take it away. Just make sure he goddamn sure knows why. Make sure you tie all the events to it.

JoeyChuckles 02-04-2013 06:18 PM

I don't have kids either, but I say take it away. 11 is too young for all that stuff. 14 is a good age to start all that.

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9378476)
Be it noted that I don't have kids.

But I would take it away. Just make sure he goddamn sure knows why. Make sure you tie all the events to it.

He's deleting all of his progress files from the XBOX right now, as we speak.

Imon Yourside 02-04-2013 06:19 PM

I won't let my son play Black Ops either, but I do let him play some violent games. he knows the difference between game world and real world. I would definitely take it away for some time as punishment for sure as well as a few other things but that's just me.

keg in kc 02-04-2013 06:19 PM

I'll add my voice to the list of those saying "I don't have kids, but I would take it away". Not sell, though. Ground. And make sure he understands why. There have to be consequences or he'll just keep doing what he's doing.

I would however also say 'listen to your instincts' in most situations. They're usually right.

-King- 02-04-2013 06:20 PM

Don't sell it. Take it away for a while.
Posted via Mobile Device

Molitoth 02-04-2013 06:20 PM

Sit him down and explain the negatives of theft, and how someday it will effect him and the things he owns.

The Franchise 02-04-2013 06:20 PM

Where is the Xbox located in the house?

allen_kcCard 02-04-2013 06:21 PM

I have a son the same age. He tried lying a year or two ago and got caught in it and we took all electronics away for one week for each time he told the lie to us before he finally gave in and told the truth, came up to be 6 weeks. That was no Wii, TV, computer, DS, anything, all he could do was read and do homework. He got the message and doesn't lie anymore...that or he has gotten to be damn good at it.

If it was at the point of what you are mentioning now, the xbox would disappear and I wouldn't even give him the closure of knowing what happened to it, it would just be gone, and in it's place I might leave a note that says next time you are caught lying or taking something that isn't yours it will be worse.

Skyy God 02-04-2013 06:21 PM

Taking away the 360 is a good start, but it sounds like you need to reevaluate how your parenting has led to stealing being acceptable (e.g., weak punishment for the necklace heist).

Or, if you're anything like my BIL, you should get off your GD computer and spend more time with your son. ;)

Ceej 02-04-2013 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 9378488)
Don't sell it. Take it away for a while.
Posted via Mobile Device

This is what I voted for also.

Sorter 02-04-2013 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 9378470)
Alright, my 11 year old son said a friend of his "gave" him his copy of Black Ops 2, because he thought he had lost it... got another copy and gave this other copy to my son.

I don't want my kids playing these violent video games, as it is, so I wouldn't buy this game for him.

Well, my son's friend's mom just called me and told me that they couldn't find the game anywhere... and they last remember playing it when my son was there.

My son then changed his story when confronted, saying that he was "borrowing" it and that his friend said that he could.

This is the third instance of him grabbing something that doesn't belong to him. He used my stored credit card in the XBOX to buy a bunch of credits to download games about 7-8 months ago. He took a gold peace sign necklace from my mom about 4 months ago. And now this.

So, should I sell the XBOX 360 or not? My instinct says yes. What say you?

TL;DR my son stole something for the 3rd time in the past 8 months, should I sell the XBOX?

Take your son out into your backyard. Show him where you have placed the xbox. Remove the baseball bat from behind your back. Smash xbox repeatedly.

Repeat 3X for effect.

Look your son in the eyes, then smile as you light it on fire.

Imon Yourside 02-04-2013 06:22 PM

The main reason I say sell it is to buy a PS3 instead, but I would definitely take it away for quite a while.

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence (Post 9378494)
Where is the Xbox located in the house?

We have it in the game room.... most of the time it is in the living room though.

My kids have no TV's in their rooms. Nor computers.

Buck 02-04-2013 06:23 PM

I voted to sell it, but I just bought a 360 and notice there were pretty extensive parental controls.

If you don't want to sell it, but don't want him playing it for a while, I'm sure you could change the settings to where he couldn't play it even if he had access to it.

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorter (Post 9378502)
Take your son out into your backyard. Show him where you have placed the xbox. Remove the baseball bat from behind your back. Smash xbox repeatedly.

Repeat 3X for effect.

Look your son in the eyes, then smile as you light it on fire.

where does the AIDS and antifreeze come into play? I'm confused.

The Franchise 02-04-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 9378509)
We have it in the game room.... most of the time it is in the living room though.

My kids have no TV's in their rooms. Nor computers.

1. Take away the Xbox for 3 months.
2. Password protect all purchases.
3. When he gets it back....the Xbox gets moved to where he has to play it where you can see.

KCUnited 02-04-2013 06:24 PM

NFL Play 60

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck (Post 9378510)
I voted to sell it, but I just bought a 360 and notice there were pretty extensive parental controls.

If you don't want to sell it, but don't want him playing it for a while, I'm sure you could change the settings to where he couldn't play it even if he had access to it.

I never play the XBOX... but maybe I can lock it down. Good idea. Thanks, man.

Ceej 02-04-2013 06:25 PM

Can I change my vote to - "what you would have rather done to Thannon Tharpe when you saw him in public?"

Sorter 02-04-2013 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 9378513)
where does the AIDS and antifreeze come into play? I'm confused.

ROFL

Iowanian 02-04-2013 06:27 PM

My preschool daughter came home with 13 pennies from a boy on the bus and I made her give them to the boys' mom. My kids won't take things that aren't theirs and they will learn it as the opportunity comes.

If my kid stole 3 times, I'd beat their butt hard enough they would pray HARP Rings would bring aliens to vaccinate them with pit bull teeth to numb them.

Not sure if I'd sell the Xbox or smash it in front of them.


We have a Zero tolerance policy on theft here. No gray area.

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cave Johnson (Post 9378500)
Taking away the 360 is a good start, but it sounds like you need to reevaluate how your parenting has led to stealing being acceptable (e.g., weak punishment for the necklace heist).

Or, if you're anything like my BIL, you should get off your GD computer and spend more time with your son. ;)

The punishment for the "necklace heist" was he deleted all of the progress on the XBOX and didn't have access to it, the computer or the iPad for 6 weeks.

He got a couple swats with the belt, as well.

teedubya 02-04-2013 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian (Post 9378534)
My preschool daughter came home with 13 pennies from a boy on the bus and I made her give them to the boys' mom. My kids won't take things that aren't theirs and they will learn it as the opportunity comes.

If my kid stole 3 times, I'd beat their butt hard enough they would pray HARP Rings would bring aliens to vaccinate them with pit bull teeth to numb them.

Not sure if I'd sell the Xbox or smash it in front of them.


We have a Zero tolerance policy on theft here. No gray area.

As soon as my wife gets home, I'm taking him over there to his friend's house to have him confront the situation.

I'm with you on the no theft zero tolerance.

-King- 02-04-2013 06:30 PM

You know what... to teach him a lesson, don't take the entire xbox away. Just take his controller and hard drive. That way he will always see it but never be able to use it.
Posted via Mobile Device

hometeam 02-04-2013 06:31 PM

Just throwing this out there, and not making a judgement by any means. But, do you think not allowing them to have violent games and hoarding all the digital play devices in the living room is fueling a need to act out?

Fritz88 02-04-2013 06:31 PM

I think he should know why you are going to take a certain course of action because he committed a mistake. But the issue is that he seems to be "taking" things from people without their permission. I am not sure how taking the XBOX from him will fix the problem.

Take it and you surely need to do something else to address what he has been doing.

Gadzooks 02-04-2013 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molitoth (Post 9378491)
Sit him down and explain the negatives of theft, and how someday it will effect him and the things he owns.

This, take his Xbox away, (don't get rid of it). While you're speaking to him, look at him as though he's repulsive.
This method should shame him into understanding that his underhanded actions are also repulsive.
Also, try to setup something where he can earn his Xbox back through positive behavior. Something that would take 2 weeks to a month to accomplish.
Problem solved. Your welcome.

Iowanian 02-04-2013 06:32 PM

Making him return it, look them in the face and dealing with the consequences is a good start.

Call the mom before hand and ask her to tell him that 'she's very disappointed" in him and that he can't return for a while.


All theft should be dealt with by hulk smash.

I forgot a boy gave my first grader a dollar last fall and she had to return it as well. It's not hers, she didn't steal, but right is right.

Judge Smails 02-04-2013 06:33 PM

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/...r-10.jpg?w=500

lewdog 02-04-2013 06:34 PM

I would keep the Xbox but obviously take it a way for quite some time. I would then line up chores and make him earn a certain "amount of money" to get the Xbox back so he knows the value of a dollar and what it takes to earn things.

Iowanian 02-04-2013 06:35 PM

When the Xbox is gone and he is really upset....that is a great time to say
"Hey Boy, How do you think the people who have their things stolen feel when they realize their belongings are gone?"

silver5liter 02-04-2013 06:35 PM

I dont see the problem with the black ops. Kid should know the difference between real and fake. I played them all through childhood and I am fine. Now the stealing thing, thats another question. Sell his stuff.

silver5liter 02-04-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hometeam (Post 9378554)
Just throwing this out there, and not making a judgement by any means. But, do you think not allowing them to have violent games and hoarding all the digital play devices in the living room is fueling a need to act out?


Thats a possibility too. Most kids I grew up with that had very strict parents on tv shows they could watch, games and movies grew up to be more problems then the ones who had more relaxed parents.

Iowanian 02-04-2013 06:43 PM

I have to stop reading here at home.

When this photo came onto my screen, my oldest who can read now had walked up behind me...didn't know it...and started laughing, reading this sign out loud.

We used it as a 2 minute learning session....and had a discussion about about if it was ok to steal $.25 or $25 and what was the difference. There is none.

now they are back to reading and the wild man is singing some song about Jake and a pirate so we're back to normal.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge Smails (Post 9378569)

I let my kids sit on my lap sometimes playing black ops...and make sure to remind them that is just a game and the cartoon fell down.

SAUTO 02-04-2013 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian (Post 9378534)
My preschool daughter came home with 13 pennies from a boy on the bus and I made her give them to the boys' mom. My kids won't take things that aren't theirs and they will learn it as the opportunity comes.

If my kid stole 3 times, I'd beat their butt hard enough they would pray HARP Rings would bring aliens to vaccinate them with pit bull teeth to numb them.

Not sure if I'd sell the Xbox or smash it in front of them.


We have a Zero tolerance policy on theft here. No gray area.

This. **** a thief.
Posted via Mobile Device

mdchiefsfan 02-04-2013 06:51 PM

when I was younger I had a case of the sticky fingers. My mom had me pack my clothes and toys, say good bye to my brothers because I would never see them again and had a police officer come to the house with handcuffs saying you better change or youre going with him. It left a mark for sure.

My girlfriend's son is developing the same thing and my solution to it, which has worked to date, was I told him I was going to show him what it felt like to have stuff stolen. I told him anything in his room would become mine if he stole again. If he steals again I'm going in his room, taking his tv, his xbox, and whatever toys are present and hiding them in my room.

I wouldn't sell anything though because the reward should be getting what was taken away back. He should be given a chance to prove he's learned a lesson.

wazu 02-04-2013 06:53 PM

This poll needs harsher options.

Ceej 02-04-2013 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 9378623)
This poll needs harsher options.

Yeah.

Like murder.

DeezNutz 02-04-2013 07:09 PM

What's going to happen in his teens? Make this correction meaningful.

durtyrute 02-04-2013 07:14 PM

I voted for sell it................TO ME

He doesn't need a damn video game system anyway

1ChiefsDan 02-04-2013 07:15 PM

Definitely a pattern forming there. I voted sell. And that would just be the beginning.

I do have kids, 10 and 15, but I haven't had to deal with any criminal behavior fortunately.

Saul Good 02-04-2013 07:16 PM

Multiple instances of theft plus lying? Sell it.

Frazod 02-04-2013 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJizzles (Post 9378632)
Yeah.

Like murder.

LMAO

I brought you into this world, I can take you out.

If my dad had ever busted me stealing stuff like this, he would have.... hell, I don't know what he would have done, but it would have been severe and painful.

Personally, I'd take the Xbox out to a gun range and use it for target practice, while he watched, and there would not be a replacement for at least a year, and then only if he paid for it himself. Oh, and that would be AFTER his ass had become one with the belt. But that's just me.

I assume going Office Space on it with a baseball bat would achieve the same result. Better yet, make him do it.

It also sounds like you've got a serious problem child on your hands. Good luck nipping that crap in the bud.

HoneyBadger 02-04-2013 07:19 PM

I'm going to have to see this gold necklace first.

durtyrute 02-04-2013 07:19 PM

He's just trying to get your attention. He feels neglected. Spend some time with him and it might stop, but really, sell me the xbox first.

Imon Yourside 02-04-2013 07:21 PM

Some pretty good advice in here, fortunately My son knows better so I don't think I have to worry about this at least until he has a chance to run around with the wrong group of morons in High school in a few years.

Frazod 02-04-2013 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durtyrute (Post 9378666)
He's just trying to get your attention. He feels neglected. Spend some time with him and it might stop, but really, sell me the xbox first.

There may be something to this. I know TW's been traveling quite a bit lately.

TribalElder 02-04-2013 07:26 PM

Sell it. Then next Xmas get the new one either ps4 or new Xbox

Dante84 02-04-2013 07:28 PM

"It was Aliens"

- Little dub

okcchief 02-04-2013 07:30 PM

Caught stealing 3 times demands some serious action. It maybe hard for you now, but it will keep him from much more serious trouble later. Sell the Xbox at minimum. Have him do some volunteer work on the weekends to show what people do for the things he just takes.

|Zach| 02-04-2013 07:34 PM

Not a parent but the xbox seems to be too big a part of the equation.

I guess it is a great idea if you adequately connect the loss of the xbox to his actions but it seems that would take a lot of reinforcement of that message.

The "shit i cant play all these games" and thoughts like that would be taking up so much space when the "why" he can't play them is the most important.

Again. Not a parent so I dont pretend to know WTF I am talking about here.

Imon Yourside 02-04-2013 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9378668)
Some pretty good advice in here, fortunately My son knows better so I don't think I have to worry about this at least until he has a chance to run around with the wrong group of morons in High school in a few years.

Man I talk my son up so what does he do? He lied about his homework being done, no Computer/PS3/WII for a week and a couple of lashes. :(

Mr. Flopnuts 02-04-2013 07:47 PM

When I was a kid around his age I did something similar. My folks made me take the item to their door and tell them what I had done and apologize. It was so humiliating I never considered doing anything like that again.

teedubya 02-04-2013 08:20 PM

My son and I went to this kid's house tonight and my son chatted with him and his dad and returned the game.

Apparently, the kid said he could borrow the game a couple of weeks ago... but he didn't borrow it then. And my son took that as an open invitation to take it the last time he was over there.

That would have been fine, except he told me the lie about his friend "giving" him his "extra" copy and had every intention of keeping it.

So... I've currently locked the XBOX down with permissions... and my seven year old loves playing Minecraft in offline creative mode... so, I think the idea of it being here as a reminder to him. Perhaps.

All of his game play and friends have been deleted. I may let him earn it back at a later date... but as it is, he is grounded from all technology for 3 months. He will be doing lots of reading... and we will be spending more time outdoors.

Thanks for the all of the thought-provoking comments, folks. I appreciate it.

Frazod 02-04-2013 08:22 PM

NEEDS MORE VIOLENCE :$2500:


:evil:

teedubya 02-04-2013 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9378787)
NEEDS MORE VIOLENCE :$2500:


:evil:

He also got a nice ass whooping. But the pain of that XBOX being inaccessible will bring him a reminder... and I may still sell it. I need more time to think about it.

Pin Head 02-04-2013 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 9378798)
He also got a nice ass whooping. But the pain of that XBOX being inaccessible will bring him a reminder... and I may still sell it. I need more time to think about it.

It could also be that you're just a shitty father and your son is mirroring that as a result?

Rasputin 02-04-2013 08:35 PM

1) Sell the kid to Gypsies

2) Keep the xbox 360 for yourself

3) Profit

Hammock Parties 02-04-2013 08:35 PM

Tell him you sold it. LMAO

Teach the little goblin a lesson.

Frazod 02-04-2013 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narrow Head (Post 9378809)
It could also be that you're just a shitty father and your son is mirroring that as a result?

This probably isn't the best place for you to showcase exactly how much of a douche you are.

Imon Yourside 02-04-2013 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9378815)
This probably isn't the best place for you to showcase exactly how much of a douche you are.

He has a very narrow head, he can't help it.

O.city 02-04-2013 08:37 PM

Start stealing shit from him. Well, not really.


I'd probably take it away for a while, my parents used to always just take the controlers when I got in trouble. So there is that.

J Diddy 02-04-2013 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts (Post 9378720)
When I was a kid around his age I did something similar. My folks made me take the item to their door and tell them what I had done and apologize. It was so humiliating I never considered doing anything like that again.

I remember when I was 10 I took a piece of 3 cent gum from the local gas station. I got caught, beat and spent the entire summer cleaning in that store for free.

I learned my lesson well.

QuikSsurfer 02-04-2013 08:39 PM

Deleting his saved progress?? You think that hurts? The kid still has his achievement points! Delete the gamertag
Sell the 360
Buy a PS3
Profit

Raiderhater58 02-04-2013 08:41 PM

you need to do a little more than sell the Xbox

EagleRob 02-04-2013 08:43 PM

This is more than theft or lying. He needs to be taught about fundamental TRUST. Right now, you shouldn't trust him to do the right thing when nobody is watching. There's something deeper going on and you need to dig into it with a good man-to-man talk about hnor and values and what it really means to be a man. Respect for yourself and others if that needs to be articulated. In the meantime, mega-restriction on some of the freedoms that he has enjoyed over the years. Lock him down for a while - grounding, no electronics, nothing but homework and reading for at least two weeks. He earns your trust back then he earns the freedoms commensurate with that trust - and not until and certainly not all at once. Not to be dramatic, but if this isn't curtailed by Dad at age 11, it will be dealt with at age 16 by the Law. Find out why he feels the need to take from others. Is he not getting something basic in his life that the stealing helps to ease emotionally or is there more to it? Might take more than one talk, but in order for him to regain your trust, you need to convince him to communicate openly about his feelings.

Pin Head 02-04-2013 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9378815)
This probably isn't the best place for you to showcase exactly how much of a douche you are.

I think that you're the douche I also think that your own son would agree and anyone else within earshot.

wazu 02-04-2013 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleRob (Post 9378832)
This is more than theft or lying. He needs to be taught about fundamental TRUST. Right now, you shouldn't trust him to do the right thing when nobody is watching. There's something deeper going on and you need to dig into it with a good man-to-man talk about hnor and values and what it really means to be a man. Respect for yourself and others if that needs to be articulated. In the meantime, mega-restriction on some of the freedoms that he has enjoyed over the years. Lock him down for a while - grounding, no electronics, nothing but homework and reading for at least two weeks. He earns your trust back then he earns the freedoms commensurate with that trust - and not until and certainly not all at once. Not to be dramatic, but if this isn't curtailed by Dad at age 11, it will be dealt with at age 16 by the Law. Find out why he feels the need to take from others. Is he not getting something basic in his life that the stealing helps to ease emotionally or is there more to it? Might take more than one talk, but in order for him to regain your trust, you need to convince him to communicate openly about his feelings.

And above all, make sure you teach him to boo Santa Claus, AMIRITE?

Imon Yourside 02-04-2013 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSsurfer (Post 9378826)
Deleting his saved progress?? You think that hurts? The kid still has his achievement points! Delete the gamertag
Sell the 360
Buy a PS3
Profit

Sage advice here, esp the ps3 part.

EagleRob 02-04-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 9378840)
And above all, make sure you teach him to boo Santa Claus, AMIRITE?

Santa Claus deserved it. My parents told me he was real. Then he wasn't. Then there he was.

Frazod 02-04-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narrow Head (Post 9378835)
I think that you're the douche I also think that your own son would agree and anyone else within earshot.

I always love it when some dumb**** n00b puts the KICK ME sign on his ass himself. LMAO

QuikSsurfer 02-04-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9378842)
Sage advice here, esp the ps3 part.

If you really wanna teach a young gamer a lesson, buy them a Wii.

Bump 02-04-2013 08:50 PM

Your kid needs some discipline for sure

Pin Head 02-04-2013 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9378852)
I always love it when some dumb**** n00b puts the KICK ME sign on his ass himself. LMAO


Your own son hates you. Do you love that? You're a douche and need kicked in the ****ing head. I hope I'm wrong but based on your response it's clear that you're a ****ing loser.

Frazod 02-04-2013 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narrow Head (Post 9378864)
Your own son hates you. Do you love that? You're a douche and need kicked in the ****ing head. I hope I'm wrong but based on your response it's clear that you're a ****ing loser.

No son here. I was afraid it would end up being an idiot-ass reerun punk like you and pulled out instead.

wazu 02-04-2013 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater (Post 9378872)
I am speaking from experience here. Get that blasted thing out of your house while you have the chance, and for the love of all that is holy don't let him have another one until he can buy it himself. My biggest regret as a father is buying my son one of those god forsaken ambition sucking machines. I'd love to go up to his room right now and smash that ****ing thing to pieces.

Do it. Do it now.

So why don't you?

Pin Head 02-04-2013 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9378867)
No son here. I was afraid it would end up being an idiot-ass reerun punk like you and pulled out instead.

Good,that. Now, what's your oovoo? Let's find out who's reeruned and who isn't...

jspchief 02-04-2013 09:14 PM

I'd have a long talk with him about what it means to take things from other people. He stole from a friend. That's going to make for a short friends list before it's all over.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.