You watched him play in the Senior Bowl, I already know that. I was wondering how many times you watched him play will at Michigan.

He was far from dominant in 75% of the games I watched.

Again, I'm not saying the guy isn't good. He's just a HUGE risk. And like I said, it's WELL documented.

And are we in a position that we should take that large a risk at #20 overall? Personally I don't think so. If we weren't trying to make up for past whiffs in the draft and FA then perhaps we could roll the dice on the kid. I can't believe that there won't be someone available at 20 that immediately upgrades a starter and carries much less of a Boom-or-Bust tag with him.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. We can't afford another Junior Siavii/Ryan Sims...

You must have not watched him specifically then. He contributed to the team's defense, it's just unfortunate the rest of the defense was in shambles. I don't recall a specific amount of games, I've seen him play in, although I find it funny, that I'm the only one you have requested that information from. Guessing I would say I've seen him play in 6 or 7 games including the Senior Bowl.

After the top 10 picks you're always taking a risk, if there was no risk the guy wouldn't be there at 20. Taking a risk in the top 10 is how you end up screwed......Ryan Sims.

Junior Siavii and Gabe Watson are different kinds of risks. It's fine to take a risk if it's a well calculated thought out risk. Watson is probably going to go somewhere in the neighborhood of our first pick, he has the talent to be better than that pick, a calcuated risk. Junior Siavii on the other hand was thought of us a 5th rounder and was just a flat out dumb move.

How was Ryan Sims a risk? I'm guessing you don't remember scouting reports for him. He was widely regarded as the best DT prospect in the draft and worthy of top 10 consideration. In fact, several scouting reports went as far as speculating that Sims was the reason for Peppers' success in college.

People use hindsight to take shots at that pick, but there was no reason to believe he wasn't a top quality DT when he was drafted. The Chiefs may have got it wrong, but all the "experts" that were grading him before the draft go it wrong too.

Now Siavii, that was just plain stupid.

You're the only one I requested that info from because you're the only one trying to ignore the facts.

And if worse comes to worse, always question whether or not I was actually watching him. That always works.

If you saw him 6 times, including the Super Bowl, then I probably saw him THREE TIMES as many times as you did.

I think if we want a DT, Ngata is our best bet. But he will be gone before we pick. If we had to trade up to get him, we'd have to give up extra picks for him. If you guys wanna talk risk, thats a risk.

Gabe Watson, on the other hand, meh.....Im not crazy about him. I think he is a bit overhyped.

I think our best solution for DT is to sign Rocky Bernard in FA. He is by far the best available at this position. DT is very thin this year. But, regardless, we need another pass rusher especially in the interior of our line. He did an excellent job this year producing 8.5 sacks.

He's a good kid and he has great potential.

But he's lazy and does disappear too often.

I haven't ignored one damn thing regarding Gabe Watson. I provided documentation that states there are others who agree with me about Gabe Watson and his playing. I've QUESTIONED if Watson is truly LAZY and asked someone to prove that he is lazy. That is what I disagree with(his work ethic), but I've certainly not IGNORED it, like you are accusing me of.

BTW, I said SENIOR BOWL, not Super Bowl, but I guess subliminally you think he's going to become a great player, too. :p

You produced a couple of scouting reports that agree with you.

Here's a couple that agree with me:
http://www.draftshowcase.com/GabeWatson.htm
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sco...abewatson.html

Obviously, nobody can PROVE he is lazy. All we have is what we saw on TV. I also know that he's not popular with Michigan fans for the same reason - they thought he dogged it much of this season.

Understand, I'm not saying this guy is guaranteed gonna be bust. I'm just weary of signing him to a 1st-round contract, which is slotted with guaranteed money, when he's shown obvious signs of having problems with motivation in the past.

Super Bowl. Damn. :D I do that all the time with things that I type frequently. I must type Super Bowl on here far too much. :p

This also should clear-up our conversation about Gabe Watson and being recognized in the Big 10...

November 22, 2005

Four Wolverines Receive First Team All-Big Ten Honors



PARK RIDGE, Ill. -- The Big Ten Conference Office announced today (Tuesday, Nov. 22) the 2005 all-conference football teams and individual award winners, with the University of Michigan placing seven players on the All-Big Ten first or second team. The Wolverines had four first-team performers and three second-team honorees.

A two-time All-Big Ten second team selection by the coaches the previous two seasons, senior wide receiver and co-captain Jason Avant (Chicago, Ill./Carver HS) collected consensus All-Big Ten first team honors from both the coaches and media.

Senior defensive tackle Gabe Watson (Novi, Mich./Southfield HS) also received first-team accolades from both panels after splitting recognition last year. He earned All-Big Ten first team honors from the coaches and picked up a second-team nod from the media in 2004.

Fifth-year senior right guard Matt Lentz (Ortonville, Mich./Brandon HS) and fifth-year senior left tackle Adam Stenavich (Marshfield, Wis./Marshfield HS) gained first team accolades from the media and were second-team selections by the coaches.

Fifth-year senior tight end Tim Massaquoi (Allentown, Pa./Parkland HS) and junior cornerback Leon Hall (Vista, Calif./Vista HS) earned second team honors from both the coaches and media. Massaquoi was a consensus first-team selection on both ballots last year, and Hall improved upon his honorable mention selection from one year ago.

Fifth-year senior left guard Leo Henige (Chesaning, Mich./Chesaning HS) was the third U-M offensive lineman to gain all-conference accolades, receiving second team honors from the media and honorable mention accolades from the coaches.

Senior tight end Tyler Ecker (El Dorado Hills, Calif./Oak Ridge HS), fifth-year senior cornerback Grant Mason (Pontiac, Mich./Orchard Lake St. Mary's HS), fifth-year senior defensive tackle and co-captain Pat Massey (Brecksville, Ohio/St. Ignatius HS), junior placekicker Garrett Rivas (Tampa, Fla./Jesuit HS) and junior rush linebacker LaMarr Woodley (Saginaw, Mich./Saginaw HS) earned honorable mention from both the coaches and media panels. Junior outside linebacker Prescott Burgess (Warren, Ohio/Warren G. Harding HS) was an honorable mention selection by the coaches.

Senior wide receiver Carl Tabb (Ann Arbor, Mich./Huron HS) was named Michigan's recipient of the Big Ten Sportsmanship Award.

All-Big Ten Notes:
-- Lentz, Stenavich and Watson finished their careers with back-to-back first team honors.
-- Three of Michigan's five offensive linemen earned All-Big Ten accolades.
-- Hall and Henige earned their first career All-Big Ten recognition.
-- Rivas has received honorable mention the past two seasons.



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2005 All-Big Ten Conference Teams
As Selected by the Conference Coaches

OFF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
QB Brett Basanez, Northwestern Michael Robinson, Penn State
RB LAURENCE MARONEY, Minnesota* TYRELL SUTTON, Northwestern
RB BRIAN CALHOUN, Wisconsin TONY HUNT, Penn State
WR Jason Avant, Michigan Mark Philmore, Northwestern
WR SANTONIO HOLMES, Ohio State Brandon Williams, Wisconsin
C Greg Eslinger, Minnesota Nick Mangold, Ohio State
OG Mark Setterstrom, Minnesota Matt Lentz, Michigan
OG Rob Sims, Ohio State JORDAN GRIMES, Purdue
OT LEVI BROWN, Penn State Adam Stenavich, Michigan
OT JOE THOMAS, Wisconsin Zach Strief, Northwestern
TE MATT SPAETH, Minnesota Tim Massaquoi, Michigan
PK Josh Huston, Ohio State KYLE SCHLICHER, Iowa

DEF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
DL Gabe Watson, Michigan Victor Adeyanju, Indiana
DL Mike Kudla, Ohio State Anthony Montgomery, Minnesota
DL Tamba Hali, Penn State* Barry Cofield, Northwestern
DL Scott Paxson, Penn State QUINN PITCOCK, Ohio State (tie)
Rob Ninkovich, Purdue (tie)
LB Chad Greenway, Iowa Abdul Hodge, Iowa
LB A.J. Hawk, Ohio State Tim McGarigle, Northwestern
LB PAUL POSLUSZNY, Penn State Bobby Carpenter, Ohio State
DB Nate Salley, Ohio State Jovon Johnson, Iowa
DB DONTE WHITNER, Ohio State Leon Hall, Michigan
DB ASHTON YOUBOTY, Ohio State (tie)
Calvin Lowry, Penn State (tie) Eric Smith, Michigan State
DB Alan Zemaitis, Penn State
P KEN DEBAUCHE, Wisconsin Steve Weatherford, Illinois

* denotes unanimous first team selection

HONORABLE MENTION: ILLINOIS: Ryan Matha; IOWA: Antwan Allen, Ed Hinkel, KENNY IWEBEMA, MARCUS PASCHAL, ALBERT YOUNG; MICHIGAN: Prescott Burgess, Tyler Ecker, Leo Henige, Grant Mason, Pat Massey, Garrett Rivas, LaMarr Woodley; MICHIGAN STATE: Domata Peko, JERRAMY SCOTT, Stefon Wheeler; MINNESOTA: TONY BRINKHAUS, Keith Lipka, GARY RUSSELL; NORTHWESTERN: MARQUICE COLE, Herschel Henderson; OHIO STATE: Marcus Green, ANTONIO PITTMAN, Anthony Schlegel, TROY SMITH; PENN STATE: JAY ALFORD, DEON BUTLER, Chris Harrell, JEREMY KAPINOS, Matthew Rice; PURDUE: DORIEN BRYANT, Mike Otto, SEAN SESTER, Brandon Villarreal; WISCONSIN: Jason Pociask, JOE STELLMACHER.

Offensive Player of the Year: Michael Robinson, Penn State
Offensive Lineman of the Year: Greg Eslinger, Minnesota
Defensive Player of the Year: A.J. Hawk, Ohio State
Defensive Lineman of the Year: Tamba Hali, Penn State*
Freshman of the Year: Tyrell Sutton, Northwestern



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2005 All-Big Ten Conference Teams
As Selected by the Media

OFF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
QB Brett Basanez, Northwestern Michael Robinson, Penn State
RB LAURENCE MARONEY, Minnesota ALBERT YOUNG, Iowa
RB BRIAN CALHOUN, Wisconsin TYRELL SUTTON, Northwestern
WR Jason Avant, Michigan JAMES HARDY, Indiana
WR SANTONIO HOLMES, Ohio State DORIEN BRYANT, Purdue
C Greg Eslinger, Minnesota Nick Mangold, Ohio State
OG Matt Lentz, Michigan Leo Henige, Michigan
OG Mark Setterstrom, Minnesota Rob Sims, Ohio State
OT Adam Stenavich, Michigan Zach Strief, Northwestern
OT JOE THOMAS, Wisconsin LEVI BROWN, Penn State
TE MATT SPAETH, Minnesota Tim Massaquoi, Michigan
PK Josh Huston, Ohio State KYLE SCHLICHER, Iowa

DEF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
DL KENNY IWEBEMA, Iowa Victor Adeyanju, Indiana
DL Gabe Watson, Michigan JAY ALFORD, Penn State
DL Mike Kudla, Ohio State Matthew Rice, Penn State
DL Tamba Hali, Penn State* Rob Ninkovich, Purdue
LB Chad Greenway, Iowa Abdul Hodge, Iowa
LB A.J. Hawk, Ohio State Tim McGarigle, Northwestern
LB PAUL POSLUSZNY, Penn State Bobby Carpenter, Ohio State
DB Jovon Johnson, Iowa Leon Hall, Michigan
DB Nate Salley, Ohio State MARQUICE COLE, Northwestern
DB ASHTON YOUBOTY, Ohio State Calvin Lowry, Penn State
DB Alan Zemaitis, Penn State RODERICK ROGERS, Wisconsin
P KEN DEBAUCHE, Wisconsin Steve Weatherford, Illinois

* denotes unanimous first team selection

HONORABLE MENTION: INDIANA: Kyle Killion; IOWA: Antwan Allen, Brian Ferentz, Ed Hinkel, MITCH KING; MICHIGAN: Tyler Ecker, Grant Mason, Pat Massey, Garrett Rivas, LaMarr Woodley; MICHIGAN STATE: Domata Peko, Eric Smith, DREW STANTON, Stefon Wheeler; MINNESOTA: TRUMAINE BANKS, TONY BRINKHAUS, STEVE DAVIS, Anthony Montgomery, John Pawielski, GARY RUSSELL; NORTHWESTERN: Barry Cofield, Herschel Henderson, SHAUN HERBERT; OHIO STATE: Marcus Green, TED GINN JR., QUINN PITCOCK, ANTONIO PITTMAN, TROY SMITH, DONTE WHITNER; PENN STATE: DEON BUTLER, Chris Harrell, TONY HUNT, Scott Paxson; PURDUE: JORDAN GRIMES, Mike Otto, Matt Turner, Brandon Villarreal; WISCONSIN: NICK HAYDEN, Jason Pociask, Donovan Raiola, MATT SHAUGHNESSY, JOE STELLMACHER, Brandon Williams.

Offensive Player of the Year: Brett Basanez, Northwestern
Defensive Player of the Year: A.J. Hawk, Ohio State
Freshman of the Year: Tyrell Sutton, Northwestern
Dave McClain Coach of the Year: Joe Paterno, Penn State

Big Ten Sportsmanship Award Honorees: J Leman, Illinois; Russ Richardson, Indiana; Abdul Hodge, Iowa; CARL TABB, Michigan; Kyle Brown, Michigan State; Greg Eslinger, Minnesota; Brett Basanez, Northwestern; Nate Salley, Ohio State; Michael Robinson, Penn State; Brandon Villarreal, Purdue; Jonathan Orr, Wisconsin.

I bust on that pick because I thought John Henderson was the better DT. I understand the scouting reports and the thinking that goes behind it. But, I still think the only reason we went out of our way to take Sims was because of Vermiels buddy John Bunting.

You could have made an argument for Henderson over Sims, but neither was clearly better. I just don't think you can sit back and say "we took a risk on Sims". It's not like we reached by taking him when we did.

I actually respect that our team had a guy targeted and did what they needed to land him.

Abeline Christian?

I'd be cool if we never drafted anybody from that school.

I thought they just made up that team for Madden create-a-player