What Fates Impose That Men Must Needs Abide.
 

Of late, I have been thinking about the various and sometimes strange turn of events that have affected my life. For reasons to be forever unknown, I enjoy an existence which, by all rights, I do not deserve. I was nothing short of a heathen in my younger days but now have a fabulous family, an interesting and prosperous professional life, and many friends - some of whom are actually pretty cool peeps when sober.

Anyhow, this period of reflection has caused me to think about the concept of destiny and whether or not such a force or principle or power actually exists. Throughout the centuries (perhaps since the dawn of mankind, womankind, kidkind, and sadly midget kind) human beings have conceived of a supernatural force known as destiny or fate or fortune (both good and bad) that leads us through our lives.

I wonder ... do Planeteers believe in destiny? Some unseen, strange power that predetermines the course of our events? Or, do we wander willy nilly through the willies and nillies of our existence occasionally bumping into circumstances that merely appear to us to be somehow fateful?

So I ask you, Planeteers ... do you believe in destiny?

FAX THE THOUGHTFUL

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.

No. I believe in self determination that God already anticipates.

That will make no sense to some folks here...

I believe in destiny. I believe that everything happens for a reason, good or bad. We may not understand it now, but things that happen to us today shape who/where we will be in the future.

Karma...

I don't believe in destiny, but I do believe that the circumstances of our birth propel us toward certain outcomes and act to constrain us within certain spheres of possibility. The propelling force is weak, but the spheres are rather strong. Nonetheless, they can be escaped.

This is a tough question to answer, Mr. FAX. I believe that we, as individual and independent persons, are the sole directors of our final outcomes. Sure, there may be variables along the way and there may be a higher power that is observing these events from afar. However, there are multiple paths that are created from the individual choices that we can or cannot make. I like to think of it as a never-ending Choose Your Own Adventure® book.

Yes, but "karma" is not the same as "destiny" or "fate", Ms. luv. Surely, we reap what we sow. Either for good or bad - our futures are, to some extent, determined by our past and present actions. That's how come our prisons are packed with midgets.

Destiny is something different ... a course that is plotted in advance by powers beyond our control or understanding. Sort of like predetermination, but different in the sense that fate is neither good nor bad nor spiritual in any sense ... just a script that is being acted out in which we play a part.

FAX

So, you believe that "destiny" is pre-packaged to some degree in our genes, Mr. Rain Man?

FAX

Yes, but per my spheres and vectors theory, everyone is born with a different book.

So, your philosophy holds no room for uncontrollable destiny, Mr. Crush?

I think of the many peeps who are, for example, married to a person whom they met purely by accident. These wacky peeps spend the balance of their lives affected by another peep whom they could just have easily never known. Of course, that is merely one of the paths you speak of. Still, is it possible that something we call "destiny" causes those individual paths to cross?

FAX

I believe that who we are meant to be is predetermined. The things that happen to us, especially those things that are beyond our control, are meant to happen.

For example, I chose to move into the apartment I live in. Maybe one of my neighbors will end up being Mr Right. Maybe I will lose my job and lose this apartment. It would make me that much more aware and appreciative of what I had. I don't know, but someone or something does.

Our genes and our circumstances of birth.

Some kid born in Appalachia to impoverished parents may have a sphere of possibilities that is significantly weighted toward "tobacco farmer" or "asphalt worker", while an Arab sheikh's son may have a sphere of possibilities that is significantly weighted toward "international partygoer" or "racing camel stable owner" Could the Appalachian kid end up owning racing camels? Yeah, maybe, but the odds are a lot lower, and probably almost zero.

To me, "destiny" is nothing more than people playing connect-the-dots with events in their life.

The Calvinist perspective is interesting. Still, it almost seems as though they have co-opted the ancient concept of "fate" and used biblical interpretations to place "fate" in the hands of God, Mr. ClevelandBronco. To my mind, there's very little difference, really - except for the fact that predestination includes an aspect of morality that I don't think "fate" entertains.

FAX

I do not beleive in destiny, I believe what happens in life is by the choices you make.

This is exactly how I used to feel, Mr. JuicesFlowing. I wonder now, however, if there is more to it.

After all, the notion of "destiny" is an extremely ancient concept described by philosopher peeps who were challenged to explain some of the more odd aspects of life. Perhaps they were on to something that our current culture ignores?

FAX

It's not karma.

It's a simple - yet not so simple - matter of positive repercussions coming from positive actions. If we do the right things and follow the Golden Rule, without thought of future reward, the future reward will show up anyway.

Good things result from staying busy, being positive, treating folks right (especially in business) and doing our best to follow our moral compass.

Lots of people call that karma. I think of it more as physics.

I've actually thought a lot about this over the past few years. I could elaborate further but I'd bore you even more than I already have.

Disclaimer: None of this protects us from illness, accidents or natural disasters. This is "why bad things happen to good people". Tragedy is random by nature.

FYP

Yeah, but at the same time there's probably some predictability with where you ended up in life that can be traced to your parents' life situation and the place of your birth and your gender and your height and the era of your birth. Your choices are to some extent constrained by those things.

Was Yao Ming's entry to the NBA pure choice, or did his physical attributes strongly push him into a particular life path?

Yes, Mr. Rain Man. But sometimes, the Appalachian kid selects the winning lottery ticket and the Sheikh's son is killed at the age of 12 by a rogue desert elk.

FAX

Actually Karma is much easier or realistic than any religion. And personally I do think if you do good things, good things will return to you. Call that what you want but it really does work...

Dave

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

Yao Ming would never have played in the NBA had he not grown to be 7'5". But without knowing more about him, we can't say that he wouldn't have been successful in another way at 5'5".

Yeah, but those are two types of extraordinary events that help one break out of the sphere of one's birth. One could also say that Yao Ming and Britney Spears are other examples where ambition or genetic good fortune allow one to break out, too.

And that's not to say that it's always a good thing to break out of one's sphere. If you're a Kennedy, your sphere of birth has "Senator" right smack dab in the middle, and your path of least resistance is to be a liberal, tax-raising Senator. Breaking out of that sphere probably ends up giving you a worse quality of life, at least materially.

I like the "karma" thing. Although I wish I'd been nicer to people in years gone by.

But, it's not the same thing as "destiny". Destiny isn't a payback system. Destiny deals with the outliers in causality. I mean, if strange and unaccountable events didn't occur in peeps' lives, the concept of "destiny" would probably have never come up to begin with. It's a way to try and explain outcomes that, otherwise, make no sense. Karma attempts to explain them using a barter system. Destiny doesn't.

FAX

True, most definitely. But the circumstances of his birth likely placed basketball within realistic reach of the center of his life sphere, and removed astronaut from it. In a way, it steered his life even if he had the final call of playing basketball or not.

Fate is not a rifle shot that places you in the center of a bulls-eye. Fate is a wide-scattered shotgun blast that creates a big, bloody hole of possibilities.

I think our semantics are a tad off-kilter, Mr. Rain Man.

Destiny has to do with things that occur well outside the "spheres". It's a way of explaining why things happen as they do when the "sphere" rules no longer hold true.

FAX

"You could stake the claim.
That good work is the key to good fortune.
Winners take that praise
Losers seldom take that blame."

Exactly. You're much better at describing things than I am. While I do try to do good, and I make reference to karma at times, I like the explanation of the unknown that comes with destiny. Something bad happening doesn't mean I was a bad person. It could mean that it puts me in a position for something even better. Yeah, I try to be optimistic.

See, I think a bit differently. I think destiny is the location of the sphere in the universe of possibilities, and the gravity/inertia that pulls a person toward the center of the sphere. Once the sphere is placed by the definable forces of life, free will and luck will determine how far one travels within the sphere or even outside the sphere. But I don't think there's a destiny once the sphere is placed.

On a serious note, I think that we as humans are not nearly aware of the power of our own minds. Subconsciously we focus more on the positives in our life, or we focus on the negatives. We then create our future with those thoughts.

Absolutely. For every 7 foot tall man playing in the NBA, I'd suppose there are a couple hundred others driving trucks or practicing law or bedridden from illnesses associated with their unusual height.

Shotgun blast is a good description.

You are juggling spheres with great skill here, Mr. Rain Man. For a second there, I thought we were talking "one person/one sphere". Now I see that a person might move from one sphere to another, or share spheres, or his sphere may pop leaving the poor bastard utterly sphereless in a dangerous world.

I need to percolate on the sphere concept for awhile. I may yet adopt your approach.

EDIT: Preliminarily, I think your sphere philosophy works on a social or economic level, Mr. Rain Man. I'm not so certain about inter-personal relationships, however. More percolation is required in this respect.

FAX

Although only indirectly related to the concept of "destiny", Mr. Mr. Flopnuts, I do agree with your idea here. I think of it as the Physical Mind (or conscious mind) helps us navigate through the physical world via the use of our sensory systems. The MetaPhysical (or sub-conscious mind) helps us navigate the unseen world of the supernatural or ethereal or spiritual through the use of our belief systems or faith. Of course, the physical mind can certainly influence the metaphysical mind ... that's what mantras and affirmations and stuff are all about. Well, that and making peeps look at you weird.

FAX

ok, so you think conditions determined at your birth place the sphere, but I wouldn't say that is destiny. I think there may have been some confusion calling it that. Destiny, which you're pretty much saying you don't believe in, would entail predetermined life events or path

Agree on the positive thinking. If you don't dwell on the negative but focus on the positive you'll be happier, react better to people, get better reactions, and obviously just have more fun with life.

I somewhat agree, but for instance I wanted to join the Army right out of high school, but my dad had ALS and I made the decision to not join and stay home to be with him (I was 17), but later I got married, now if I had joined as I wanted to do I would probably never married the man i ended up marrying and never having the children that I had, so that decision not to join up at the time and the choice to get married led me to what happened in my life. I do not think he and I were married because of destiny, but because of a decision I made earlier. I was at a crossroad and the road I took led to the way the rest turned out, along with other decisions I made some good, some not so good.

as for interpersonal relationships, I think it's often random who we encounter, but who we hit it off with and continue to hang out with is affected by all of our past actions. we all grow up with peers around us, most of us given an equal chance to meet and interact with anyone around us, and through our actions we are most likely to associate with individuals similar to ourselves. not only does this open the door to meeting similar friends/females through them, but being around them reinforces our actions and we are more likely to continue to associate with the same crowd. people who have made similar choices in the past and have similar personalities will often go to the same places to meet(a certain bar for a certain group) and act the same way(outgoing & confident or shy).

The human brain is designed to make connections and discover patterns. It's how we make sense of and create the world we live in. It's why some people are bad card players or football coaches: they think they see a pattern, and thus meaning, when it is chance or circumstance driving the event. When they think they see that pattern emerging again, they incorrectly play the situation and invariably the predictable happens: chase the flush and lose your chips.

The same goes in life. The mind searches for patterns, and thus meanings for life--the events that happen to us. When humans are incapable of deciphering a pattern (sometimes because it is hidden, sometimes because it is absent, sometimes because its presence is incomprehensible, sometimes because they are blind to it) and assigning meaning, they must for the sake of their own sanity construct a rationale to bring meaning to the situation. Thus destiny or fate is born.

Not coincidentally, self-determination comes into play, as assigning of a destiny or fate to oneself creates an increasing probability of that fate occurring--the ever famous self-fulfilling prophecy. We create the world we live in. Yes, random events conspire against us as certainly as do cause and effect. We live equally in a world of design and of chaos. Destiny is a choice we make to bring meaning to life when other meaning escapes us.

I may be missing something, but his take seemed slanted toward the anti-calvinist view where God doesn't determine so much as "look ahead". This is most definitely not calvinist.

It's hard to read the Bible and come away with anything other than that God has planned our days before they even come to pass. I believe it to be true.

Far from stifling me as if I have no input, it frees me up to act.

Is this 'destiny'? Don't know.

I do know that once I had an experience with an italian sausage thin-crust pizza hut pizza, and a pepsi with components so divinely mixed that I cannot deny it was a spiritual episode.

So Bernard Pollard was the vector shooting into the sphere of Tom Brady's knee?

I may have mis-interpreted his post, Mr. Groves. Probably did. My take was that, in his view, God was "predetermining" the future.

Nevertheless, one could speculate that the inventor of the Italian sausage, thin-crust pizza was influenced by destiny.

FAX

Ah, destiny being a higher force at work than God himself. Something God is subject to. Interesting thought.

Whoever invented that tasty pie has good taste, I'll say that.

I recently read a book called, Journey of Souls. It was very enlightening. That being said... all time is NOW... we determine our outcome, but we got to choose our situation prior to coming to earth... we chose our parents, challenges, etc. And if we **** up badly... we come back to a similar situation.

according to that book... anyway.

In many ways, this very concept is the same thing as destiny and karma.

Just saying......



Fax: I believe in destiny to an extint, I also believe in karma to an extent. or at least a variety of both philosophies. Sometimes, what comes around goes around. In your opening post you said you were a hethen in your younger life, but now enjoy many successes. I ask you to verify your "hethen existance" did you kill someone and now life a joyfull life with plenty of success and fullfillment? My guess is no.....

I tried for many years to accept the argument for free will, but unfortunately the analytic in me just won't allow it.

I believe in karma if you include rewards/punishments in the afterlife

I believe in personal destiny. What you do in life depends on you. It is not predetermined unless you decide you want it to happen and work to achieve it.

Then again, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Atheism based on what I've learned and Roman/Greek mythology.

Don't want to get this thread moved so just pretend I didn't say that and I don't believe life is predetermined.

atheism makes no sense to me.

if you're right ok small moral victory for you and maybe you had a little more fun than the average christian along the way
if you're wrong you burn in hell for eternity

christianity doesn't even require you to not sin, it doesn't weigh the bad against the good(I'm not including catholicism, possibly the most corrupt prominent religion in history). you accept jesus and have 0 chance of going to hell, why take the gamble? atheists need to admit to themselves that we don't know. that's their point usually, that there is no evidence, but if you don't know there isn't a hell why take the chance of spending eternity there. people don't realize what eternity means. this life is a trial-run, the ultimate test if you will

No, Mr. CrazyCoffey, I haven't killed anyone. Not yet, anyhow.

The heathenism to which I was referring could probably be more accurately described as debauchery. My earlier life (prior to being transitioned to relative normalcy by the beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX) was associated with rock & roll, after all. As I'm sure you're aware, it is incumbent upon all rock musicians to partake in every known form of unseemly conduct.

But again, destiny is not "karma". Karma is a system of barter. You trade good deeds for good fortune and vice-versa. Destiny is a plan that unfolds in your life regardless of your behavior.

FAX

I think many would disagree with this. If you accept destiny, then your behavior couldn't be any different than it is.

I had a nice long reply, but don't want to send Mr. Fax's thread to DC. I will say that I've thought that myself and feel if you are faking it and don't believe why would you be saved? That's the hipocracy that made me give up on organized religion. As of right now I do believe in a higher power, it's just in question.

karma is another form of religion to a sense. that sense being that there are different beliefs or forms of belief in what that word means. you say it's a barter system, while I referred to it as, if you do a good deed when you didn't have to, you get rewarded for it at a later time, in this life or the next, regardless of premeditated thought for that reward.

but, again, I'm only trying to throw a different perspective to your reflections on why you have good things now, when you don't feel you deserve them. I argue that you weren't as bad as you make it out to be. Sure, you didn't live the best life early on, but you seem to be a kind enough soul, that I suspect you were also a kind person overall in your younger life, offering the perspective that you have deserved the good life you enjoy now.

just my 2 cents, Mr Fax......

hence the great religious debate..... but what do we know, none of us have died and seen what happens next. Something, nothing? who really knows?

yes, that's not how I feel or how i view believers, but a very skeptical agnostic almost Cartesian perspective but I think that alone should convince atheists to rethink their ideas

no atheist has any proof that god doesn't exist. it's personal opinion/theory/blind assumption just as much as believing, so why take the risk, why not read the bible and see what you get out of it. the possible alternative is far too risky

if you still have it, pm me your reply. I am curious and wouldn't mind continuing this


way off topic: I think 'life' is essentially a proving or testing ground for god's love. if the bible is to be believed obviously our actions(whether or not we accept jesus) determine whether we enter hell(described as a place without god's love cast into a lake of fire), or heaven, where our rewards are based on our life

Exactly. And that's why I'm still debating it myself and not just going with one way or the other. When your open to alternate possibilities, you will often make a better choice...in my experiences anyway.

Haha, I don't go to DC often. I might need to head over and see if this is a topic of discussion going on. I have only talked to a few people on the subject and enjoy the debate. It's sometimes strange when I'm arguing both sides.

I've never really gotten into DC myself. this is the first time I've approached the subject on here

While your future may not be predetermined, there is no way to prove it is not.

I'll also add that you do not make choices based on free will, all of the choices you make in life have a desired consequence that is tied to the decision. No one can make a decision, just for the sake of making a decision - and that is why our fates may be predetermined, because we can not make choices based on free will alone.

I do not believe in destiny.

I believe that each individual is in control of their own fate and they and they alone make their own destiny.

which is kinda of the same thing kbeg is saying too, we don't know, so hedge your bets. Kinda anyway......

Yes, I'm saying if you're an atheist you should hedge your bets, but I don't believe all religion is or should be so cold-hearted black and white.

oh btw, kbeg really???

I don't believe in destiny. Humans exist as all living things exist, part of a big recycling bin, nothing more. Birth, life, death, repeat. This will continue until the sun explodes. Then it all becomes part of the universe recycling bin. I know this to be true.

What if you like to burn?? That would be a good thing

let's just say i don't think you'd like that kind of burn for very long:p

You make your destiny. I've seen nothing in life to indicate otherwise.

If you are destined to X then regardless of your decisions you will end up at X. However, we know that if you eat alot of calories and sit on your ass all day, everyday, your ass gets bigger. One is not destined to be a fatass but rather chooses (knowingly or not) to become a fatass.

Was the bad call at the Denver/SD game predetermined? Was Hocholi(sp?) unable to make the correct call regardless of what he could or could not do to rectify the situation? Or was it because his poor judgement, his ego, the rule book, and the situation created such a confrontational call? IMO it was a series of decisions that led to the dumbassery.

I believe we make what happens happen. I should by all acconts be dead or in prison, but I'm not. I'm living a GREAT life.

If God knew everything that was going to happen, what would be the point?

I think we, and life in general was his experiment, and he is watching with little interference. The only part of it that i think he knows for certain, is the final outcome, and even that can come about in many different ways.

Not true. You will end up at X it is BECAUSE of your decisions, not IN SPITE of them.

I think destiny is the scapegoat people cling to when they are too weak to claim responsibility for their own actions and decisions....

Ah, one of the classic arguments. Too bad it doesn't attack the argument, merely a perceived consequence.

I see no need to disprove the existence of destiny.

If others wish to claim the existence of such an extraordinary phenomenon (much the same as ghosts or UFOs) then it it is up to them to provide extraordinary proof.

God, my friend. He will never stop looking for you and giving to you, and none of us deserve what he gives to us, we cant. The Bible is clear that his grace is a gift. He is the one you should ask this question to. But a little CP observation never hurts either!

You KNOW it to be true? Im pretty sure thats the overstatement of the day right there. :shake:

Wrong. This is where the Church in America is failing. One time salvation is not forever. You still have to live according to the word of God. There are plenty of saved people in the world that will not go to heaven IMO, but I do not presume to think I will not be surprised at some of the people I see when I get there. And Im sure they might be surprised to see me..:D

ooooh ooooh I wanna answer before I read any responses. So if this thread has degenerated into a poop transexual thread by the time I read the last pages, I'm blaming fate.

I don't like believing that my life is pre-destined. I like believing that the opportunities are pre-destined. Like, life will give me lemons just to see what I'll do with them.

Living like that takes a lot of stress out of your life. If you go every day believing that the experiences you are living through are justified because for some outworldly reason you are SUPPOSED to be experiencing it, then well hell, why stress? Just do it. ($10 to Nike, thank you)

And of course there are the wtf moments. So many damn coincidences stacked on top of eachother that some mathematically inclined geniOUs would say that those extreme odds have to happen, but I'm more inclined to be a dreamer about.

I guess I believe I'm here because I'm supposed to be. And I won't be when I'm not supposed to be anymore. But I'm also the kind of girl that runs wide eyed and open armed into any new experience. And THAT comes from not being afraid to die.

Now, I do believe in one of those many many many definitions of karma.

The day isn't over yet

Fax, don't push your luck.

Just do a search on "whistling man hit, dragged and trapped under bus for several hours".

As far as believing in destiny - yes, I met her at a bachelor party and she gave me a lap dance to Ted Nugent's "Stranglehold" then offered to go to the wedding with me when I told her I needed a date.

you play the cards you are dealt. no more, no less.

Pure randomness. A mixture of personal decisions, environmental factors and external forces. So many variables that the number of possible events and outcomes are nearly infinite. I honestly feel it is completely random. Unfortunately people need 'value' added to their existence to make them feel like they have a purpose, I think this is where religion, destiny, karma, fate etc. etc. come into play. They give an explanation to the unexplainable, and humans are more comfortable believing a bunch of bullshit than just accepting that their existence is nothing more than a series of random events that serve no real purpose. But wtf do I know, I am just some random CP poster.

Boring too.