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-   -   Int'l Issues November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state." (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=266607)

Direckshun 11-13-2012 10:54 PM

November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."
 
Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

banyon 11-13-2012 11:01 PM

Then they'll take all of our guns away the next day, right?

go bo 11-15-2012 12:02 AM

the un gen assembly will pass this thing without a doubt...

the majority of the ga has always supported the palestinians' right to a state of their own, afaik...

the interesting part is how much this will impact israel and the u.s. with things like the icc, as the op pointed out...

pretty scary notion, having israel convicted of war crimes...

could get a bit sticky...

KILLER_CLOWN 11-15-2012 07:58 AM

Israel and Palestine can give each other a big makeup hug and recognize each other, The world would be better for it.

BucEyedPea 11-15-2012 08:13 AM

The UN was a big cause in this war back in the day.

Regardless, I still have to wonder why they think they should be elected to determine who is state or not.

BucEyedPea 11-15-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9120388)
Israel and Palestine can give each other a big makeup hug and recognize each other, The world would be better for it.

This.

Iowanian 11-15-2012 08:43 AM

Waste of time.

patteeu 11-15-2012 09:21 AM

Israel is calling up it's reservists. I think palestinians are about to be recognized in a way they probably don't want but definitely deserve.

patteeu 11-15-2012 09:27 AM

God's eye view of the end of a man of evil.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7PpwMnXcAwI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Iowanian 11-15-2012 09:53 AM

Hooray for Palestinian rockets smashing into apartment buildings, providing FREE late term abortions to children in Israel.

Donger 11-15-2012 10:11 AM

Oh good. It's probably easier to target a state instead of an entity.

Iowanian 11-15-2012 10:28 AM

I just hope all of the Palestinians wear their bomb vests to the celebration and detonate them at midnight as a sign of solidarity.

Amnorix 11-15-2012 11:18 AM

My sympathy for Palestine is pretty limited while they cowardly act as a proxy for Iran and lobby rockets into Israel.

stevieray 11-15-2012 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix (Post 9120847)
My sympathy for Palestine is pretty limited while they cowardly act as a proxy for Iran and lobby rockets into Israel.

:clap:

..over 200 fired into Israel today.

HonestChieffan 11-15-2012 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevieray (Post 9122305)
:clap:

..over 200 fired into Israel today.

Not gonna end well. Hopefully Israel sends a very strong message

stevieray 11-15-2012 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HonestChieffan (Post 9122308)
Not gonna end well. Hopefully Israel sends a very strong message

I have no doubt.

ForeverChiefs58 11-15-2012 11:05 PM

Hopefully, every last supporter of Hamas is executed.


"Hamas, meanwhile, warned it would strike deeper inside Israel with Iranian-made Fajr-5 rockets, acknowledging for the first time it has such longer-range weapons capable of hitting targets some 47 miles (75 kilometers) away. Tel Aviv is 40 miles (70 kilometers) from Gaza.

By nightfall Thursday, Hamas said it had fired more than 350 rockets into Israel. Israel, which estimates Gaza militants have as many as 12,000 rockets, said some 220 rockets struck the Jewish state and another 130 were intercepted by an anti-missile shield."


http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-targets-...234140732.html

WV 11-15-2012 11:09 PM

We should give them our place in the UN. Freaking joke.

|Zach| 11-15-2012 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 9117337)
Then they'll take all of our guns away the next day, right?

LMAO

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9120430)
The UN was a big cause in this war back in the day.

Regardless, I still have to wonder why they think they should be elected to determine who is state or not.


Are you referring to the partition?

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9120562)
Israel is calling up it's reservists. I think palestinians are about to be recognized in a way they probably don't want but definitely deserve.


I would have agreed with this up until recently, I've since one a 180.

patteeu 11-16-2012 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122722)
I would have agreed with this up until recently, I've since one a 180.

Talk to me. What's turned you around?

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9122762)
Talk to me. What's turned you around?

I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

durtyrute 11-16-2012 09:22 AM

http://www.frugallivingnw.com/wp-con.../empty_bag.jpg

What's in the bag you ask?

The amount of ****s given

patteeu 11-16-2012 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122844)
I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

Well, first of all, when I say the palestinians deserve the beatdown they're about to get, I'm mainly talking about the militants who continue to lob rockets into Israel from Gaza even after Israel has withdrawn both it's troops and it's settlements. I'm also talking about other palestinians in Gaza who support the militants or allow them to continue to run the show.

WRT to the Six Day War, Israel struck first, but they did so only because Egypt had taken several steps indicating that an attack was imminent. Among Egypt's actions:

Quote:

  • announced a policy of hostility to Israel
  • put its military forces on maximum alert
  • expelled the UN Emergency force from the Sinai border area
  • strengthened its forces on the border with Israel
  • announced the closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships
  • formed mutual support treaties with Iraq, Jordan and Syria

I don't know whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not. But like with the American Indian and US territory, it's ancient history now and Israel is a fact of life. 60+ year old grievances don't justify the terrorism and rocket attacks that palestinians continue to launch against Israel. Israelis would like nothing better than to live in peace next to their Arab neighbors. And if those Arab neighbors are unwilling to give the palestinian population a home, Israel has shown that they are willing to live peacefully next to a palestinian state. Unfortunately, there are a lot of palestinians who don't have peace on their minds.

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 09:35 AM

I’m not anti Semitic and certainly not pro Palestinian (no dog in the hunt) but if I had a foreign occupant force in my backyard I’d be taking shots at them. If I understood what rights the Jewish people feel they have to this land I might think differently. I haven’t found the answer to this so maybe someone can enlighten me.

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122844)
I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

Read The Thousand Year War. It's written more for a young high-schooler but it still has great information and is not a tome. It will fill in information you've never heard. You can get it cheap used too.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Thousand-Y.../dp/0942617320

Also can read about Lawrence of Arabia. If you don't have much time, there's a decent summary on the PBS site. Section on Emerging Middle East is decent.

http://www.pbs.org/lawrenceofarabia/

You can use that in conjunction with watching the old movie which just makes events real. It at least shows the betrayal by the British to the Arabs which T.E. Lawrence witnessed because he worked for British intel and fought with the Arabs. It's actually a great flick.

Then watch the movie "Exodus" to see it from the Jewish side, which shows how they were friends with Arabs and how the UN partition divides them.

Remember the UN was spawned by the US originally. It replaced progressive Wilson's League of Nations.

ROYC75 11-16-2012 09:36 AM

There is no Palestine anymore, only the fighting ragheads that think they should go back in time and re-create it.

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9122888)
There is no Palestine anymore, only the fighting ragheads that think they should go back in time and re-create it.

Not if the UN has its way.

ROYC75 11-16-2012 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9122880)
Well, first of all, when I say the palestinians deserve the beatdown they're about to get, I'm mainly talking about the militants who continue to lob rockets into Israel from Gaza even after Israel has withdrawn both it's troops and it's settlements. I'm also talking about other palestinians in Gaza who support the militants or allow them to continue to run the show.

WRT to the Six Day War, Israel struck first, but they did so only because Egypt had taken several steps indicating that an attack was imminent. Among Egypt's actions:



I don't know whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not. But like with the American Indian and US territory, it's ancient history now and Israel is a fact of life. 60+ year old grievances don't justify the terrorism and rocket attacks that palestinians continue to launch against Israel. Israelis would like nothing better than to live in peace next to their Arab neighbors. And if those Arab neighbors are unwilling to give the palestinian population a home, Israel has shown that they are willing to live peacefully next to a palestinian state. Unfortunately, there are a lot of palestinians who don't have peace on their minds.


Bingo ...... well put, I didn't want to take the time to post all the crap about Palestine or Israel.

ROYC75 11-16-2012 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9122892)
Not if the UN has its way.

Sure, imposing their will on the people of the world

patteeu 11-16-2012 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122884)
I’m not anti Semitic and certainly not pro Palestinian (no dog in the hunt) but if I had a foreign occupant force in my backyard I’d be taking shots at them. If I understood what rights the Jewish people feel they have to this land I might think differently. I haven’t found the answer to this so maybe someone can enlighten me.

They're not in their backyard. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. You can't possibly consider the entire territory of Israel to be the palestinians' backyard do you? Do you consider the state of Missouri to be unlawfully occupied American Indian territory?

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9122880)
I don't know whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not. But like with the American Indian and US territory, it's ancient history now and Israel is a fact of life. 60+ year old grievances don't justify the terrorism and rocket attacks that palestinians continue to launch against Israel. Israelis would like nothing better than to live in peace next to their Arab neighbors. And if those Arab neighbors are unwilling to give the palestinian population a home, Israel has shown that they are willing to live peacefully next to a palestinian state. Unfortunately, there are a lot of palestinians who don't have peace on their minds.

That is a good analogy and how I view it. And I completely agree that nothing justifies the attacks on people of Israel, but I would probably feel differently if my great grandparent’s farm was taken by a foreign invader. I don't think that the fact that it was water under the bridge would curb my animosity.

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9122903)
Sure, imposing their will on the people of the world

Only if the people of the world agree with it.

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9122913)
They're not in their backyard. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. You can't possibly consider the entire territory of Israel to be the palestinians' backyard do you? Do you consider the state of Missouri to be unlawfully occupied American Indian territory?

I think I do to some extent. Trail of tears.

ROYC75 11-16-2012 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9122922)
Only if the people of the world agree with it.

And when the people of the world wants to screw with us, how do you feel about this ?

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9122947)
And when the people of thew world wants to screw with us, how do you feel about this ?

What does that have to do with "us" when it comes to Palestine being seen as a state?

It has nothing to do with us.

LOCOChief 11-16-2012 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9122885)
Read The Thousand Year War. It's written more for a young high-schooler but it still has great information and is not a tome. It will fill in information you've never heard. You can get it cheap used too.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Thousand-Y.../dp/0942617320

Also can read about Lawrence of Arabia. If you don't have much time, there's a decent summary on the PBS site. Section on Emerging Middle East is decent.

http://www.pbs.org/lawrenceofarabia/

You can use that in conjunction with watching the old movie which just makes events real. It at least shows the betrayal by the British to the Arabs which T.E. Lawrence witnessed because he worked for British intel and fought with the Arabs. It's actually a great flick.

Then watch the movie "Exodus" to see it from the Jewish side, which shows how they were friends with Arabs and how the UN partition divides them.

Remember the UN was spawned by the US originally. It replaced progressive Wilson's League of Nations.

I will and thank you. And I drew the same conclusion from the UN partition.

ROYC75 11-16-2012 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9122953)
What does that have to do with "us" when it comes to Palestine being seen as a state?

It has nothing to do with us.

If the UN can take the outcry of some people of the world to force their will upon a country, what will the UN do when a large outcry of the world voices their opinion over the US ?

Different circumstances but the same policy .... imposing their will over a country because of public outcry.

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9122977)
If the UN can take the outcry of some people of the world to force their will upon a country, what will the UN do when a large outcry of the world voices their opinion over the US ?

Different circumstances but the same policy .... imposing their will over a country because of public outcry.

Yes, but don't forgot that's what we're doing for one side of that conflict too. This was done for Israel via the UN earlier as well. If it shouldn't be done then it shouldn't be done for either side.

I am all for the two sides duking it out and settling the issue on it's own with no interference instead. But it was the US progressives that spawned the same UN.

Plus, the UN is aiding and facilitating the same thing on Iran with sanctions. I take it you agree with that one?

ROYC75 11-16-2012 10:26 AM

Iran is clearly in violation of IAEA

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9123060)
Iran is clearly in violation of IAEA

Well, that has nothing to do with what I recognizing Palestine as a state or whether or not we should all be under the global governance of the UN.

For one thing, the IAEA, although independent, reports to the UN General Assembly and Security Council.
I thought you were against the UN enforcing it's mandates for us? Or is this just for other countries and not us? I say you can't have it both ways. You're either for global governance for all or not at all.

However, there is NO real evidence of Iran being in violation of the IAEA. That's disinformation that has been reprinted in the neo conservative and conservative media because they want to start another war for regime change. Israeli intelligence, Mossad, is in broad agreement with the 2007 NIE, authored by the heads of all US intelligence agencies, that the Iranian regime suspended all efforts to build a nuclear bomb in 2003.

But I don't want to turn this thread topic into a major hijack and then bring Big Dick in to waste my time rehashing the same arguments and documents all over again via his rhetorical questions.

patteeu 11-16-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122914)
That is a good analogy and how I view it. And I completely agree that nothing justifies the attacks on people of Israel, but I would probably feel differently if my great grandparent’s farm was taken by a foreign invader. I don't think that the fact that it was water under the bridge would curb my animosity.

What foreign invaders? Jews were already there before Israel was created. In fact, they were terrorists fighting for a state before it was cool to be a terrorist fighting for a state. Certainly many others emigrated after Israel was created, but they weren't foreign invaders.

When Britain's mandate ended and the UN partitioned the area, two states were created; a Jewish one (which had both Arabs and indigenous Jews in it) and an Arab one (which was almost exclusively Arab). The Arabs didn't like it so they went to war and later were joined by the neighboring Arab states. Even then, the Arabs wanted it all. Israel ended up winning that war, but as a part of the war, many of the Arabs that were in Israel fled (or, I'm sure in some cases, were forced out) and became refugees. This is what they're talking about when the palestinians demand a "right of return". They want to be able to return to Israel and reclaim land that they or their forefathers left 60+ years ago. This will never happen.

But to make a long story short, not only were there not foreign invaders, but it was the Arabs who tried to destroy Israel when they lost their previously held land, not the other way around.

patteeu 11-16-2012 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122931)
I think I do to some extent. Trail of tears.

OK, well we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Are you ready to give up whatever property you hold an illegitimate white man's title on to it's rightful owner?

KILLER_CLOWN 11-16-2012 11:00 AM

I laugh at these people that think you're anti semitic for not blindly following Israels mandate. Both sides are Shem ites. ;)

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9123129)
What foreign invaders? Jews were already there before Israel was created.

They were also content to live side by side with Arabs. They original indigenous ones called Sephardic Jews, came back when Queen Isabella kicked them out of Spain. They were not political. Then the ones who came due to Herzl's movement were not a big number and a minority. Even they lived side by side on land purchased. Their numbers swelled with what are called white European Ashkenazi Jews after WWII. These are not the same indigenous semite Jews of the area but converts to Judaism. This is part of the problem too, because they're seen as outsiders.

ForeverChiefs58 11-16-2012 12:05 PM

Here watch this to learn history in 10 min lol

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O7ByJb7QQ9U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pawnmower 11-16-2012 12:09 PM

The Palestinians should have their own state.

Its just too bad they elect parties like Hamas to represent them.

If the Hamas covenant didn't specifically state:

1) Negotiations are a waste of time

2) There can be no peace with Israel

3) The mandate is to destroy Israel

4 ) The ONLY solution is Jihad, there can be no agreements


If their own mandate didn't have these things, they would not only have their own state but they could've spent the last decades improving their citizen's lives instead of spending their time and energy continuing a futile war against Israel.

I am all for Palestine having its own state but they also need to take responsibility for controlling a state. This includes stopping people from firing rockets into Israel.

If the state is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas is at war with Israel, what is the point? That is pretty much why there isn't a state right now....It all comes back to the 1988 Charter which they are not able/willing to part with.

God help them (and us).

ROYC75 11-16-2012 01:44 PM

Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

Pawnmower 11-16-2012 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9123506)
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Well, it isn't really that simple....I mean I do see an argument for what you are saying...AND The reason they do not have a state now is quite simply because the Palestinian people, by and large, refuse to acknowledge Israel and refuse to negotiate with Israel and see Jihad / destruction of Israel as the only solution.

However, the Palestinians have as much of a right to a state as Israel according to the mandate that created Israel.

I believe it would be better to grant them their wish, because as it is now they have ZERO responsibility. Think about it....who gets the blame for the rockets and bombs and martyrs that Palestinians send at Israel?

1) Israel (for not allowing Paelstine a state)

and

2) Hamas and other terrorist organizations (who are actually elected representatives of Palestinians.

The PEOPLE of Paelstine take zero blame in the media and take zero responsibility.

Therefore, we might as well give them a state . Why? That way when the bombs and missiles continue (and they WILL) there will be NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME other than the Palestinians themselves.

Simply put, they need to put up or shut up. They need to take responsibility for their people and as a whole acknowledge that Israel exists and negotiate a peace. They need to abandon the Hamas covenant of 1988. If they continue to elect a government bent on war and with 'zero negotiation' as a platform, then that would be their choice.

If they get a state and continue to launch missiles (which I believe they will) there will be no one else but them.

This logic is similar to why we have to stop meddling in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia etc....

Let the people determine their fate. If they want war STILL after gaining their freedom, then let them have it and they won't be able to blame anyone but themselves.

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9123506)
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore.

Did you get that idea from reading Joseph Farah at WND?

Quote:

They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!
It's really none of our business. We don't rule the area.
I don't think Israel is always innocent either and we get favorable press for one side.

KILLER_CLOWN 11-16-2012 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9123506)
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

Bite your tongue, Raghead? It's quite conceivable Jesus wore such, check yourself.

go bo 11-16-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9123710)
Bite your tongue, Raghead? It's quite conceivable Jesus wore such, check yourself.

raghead is an ethnic slur in common parlance...

pretty overt prejudice there... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Donger 11-16-2012 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122844)
I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

Do you know why Israel acted pre-emptively in 1967?

Donger 11-16-2012 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9123108)
However, there is NO real evidence of Iran being in violation of the IAEA.

Wrong, as you know. Iran is in non-compliance with NPT safeguards, namely the requirement that they prove their nuclear activities are peaceful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9123108)
But I don't want to turn this thread topic into a major hijack and then bring Big Dick in to waste my time rehashing the same arguments and documents all over again via his rhetorical questions.

Well, when you blatantly and intentionally lie, sure, I'm going to correct you.

Dylan 11-16-2012 04:56 PM

Breaking News


Rockets launched at Israel from Sinai

Terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula launched rockets into Israel Friday night.

The rockets fell near an Israeli village on the southern border, causing some damage, but no injuries.

Read the full story: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292214


Arab Spring ---- -----!

vailpass 11-16-2012 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 9123910)
Breaking News


Rockets launched at Israel from Sinai

Terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula launched rockets into Israel Friday night.

The rockets fell near an Israeli village on the southern border, causing some damage, but no injuries.

Read the full story: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292214


Arab Spring ---- -----!

Yeah this isn't good. I'm nervous about this one popping off into something really big that drags the real countries into it.
That said, every Hamas member and Hamas supporter that dies is one less problem for the world.

BucEyedPea 11-16-2012 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCOChief (Post 9122955)
I will and thank you. And I drew the same conclusion from the UN partition.

It's on TV right now on TCM.

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/4455/...-synopsis.html

Easy 6 11-16-2012 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pawnmower (Post 9123342)
The Palestinians should have their own state.

Its just too bad they elect parties like Hamas to represent them.

If the Hamas covenant didn't specifically state:

1) Negotiations are a waste of time

2) There can be no peace with Israel

3) The mandate is to destroy Israel

4 ) The ONLY solution is Jihad, there can be no agreements


If their own mandate didn't have these things, they would not only have their own state but they could've spent the last decades improving their citizen's lives instead of spending their time and energy continuing a futile war against Israel.

I am all for Palestine having its own state but they also need to take responsibility for controlling a state. This includes stopping people from firing rockets into Israel.

If the state is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas is at war with Israel, what is the point? That is pretty much why there isn't a state right now....It all comes back to the 1988 Charter which they are not able/willing to part with.

God help them (and us).

.

Easy 6 11-16-2012 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 9123910)
Breaking News


Rockets launched at Israel from Sinai

Terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula launched rockets into Israel Friday night.

The rockets fell near an Israeli village on the southern border, causing some damage, but no injuries.

Read the full story: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292214


Arab Spring ---- -----!

Egypt winks at the subterfuge, fire the rockets from our lands.... say goodbye to the longstanding accord willed into place by the much maligned Jimmy Carter.

Morsi supports terror, as long as its against israel... goodbye Sadat... the lunatics have taken over.

Dylan 11-16-2012 10:17 PM

IDF Pinpoint Strike on Ahmed Jabari, Head of Hamas Military Wing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6U2ZQ0EhN4

Official Israel Defense Forces Twitter account: real-time information and updates from the IDF:

Quote:

We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead.
https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson


The Al Qassam Brigades in Palestine use a couple of Twitter accounts - However, I'm not about to post a link to their activities. They mark some of their attacks with the hashtag #terrorism.

KILLER_CLOWN 11-16-2012 10:53 PM

Israeli Debater on CNN: "The difference between us and them is that they target innocent civilians. We don't do that." Seconds later, the Palestinian debater's street is bombed.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video...eshay-intv.cnn

Pawnmower 11-16-2012 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124446)
Israeli Debater on CNN: "The difference between us and them is that they target innocent civilians. We don't do that." Seconds later, the Palestinian debater's street is bombed.

So let me get this straight...You are saying that Israelis go out of their way to target innocents?

People like you honestly are part of the reason why this conflict is still happening.

The ONLY ones going out of their way to bomb innocent people are Hamas and Palestinians.

For some reason people like you seem to not understand the difference....

There is a reason that hiding among civilians and wearing civilian clothing is illegal.....

The sooner everyone condemns the people sending 3+ rockets EVERY DAY at israel over the last DECADE the sooner we can all have peace.

Honestly, are you that stupid?

KILLER_CLOWN 11-17-2012 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pawnmower (Post 9124502)
So let me get this straight...You are saying that Israelis go out of their way to target innocents?

People like you honestly are part of the reason why this conflict is still happening.

The ONLY ones going out of their way to bomb innocent people are Hamas and Palestinians.

For some reason people like you seem to not understand the difference....

There is a reason that hiding among civilians and wearing civilian clothing is illegal.....

The sooner everyone condemns the people sending 3+ rockets EVERY DAY at israel over the last DECADE the sooner we can all have peace.

Honestly, are you that stupid?

I'm saying I posted a video, comprehend? You can feel free to go fight on one side of this unholy war, I will stay out of it.

Pawnmower 11-17-2012 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124528)
I will stay out of it.

As well you should you blowhard moron. You don't have the balls to even stand up and denounce evil when it slaps you in the face.

If mexico was firing 1000 rockets a year at the USA would you think we should try to target the mother****ers doing the rocketry?

You are a god damn retard

KILLER_CLOWN 11-17-2012 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pawnmower (Post 9124539)
As well you should you blowhard moron. You don't have the balls to even stand up and denounce evil when it slaps you in the face.

If mexico was firing 1000 rockets a year at the USA would you think we should try to target the mother****ers doing the rocketry?

You are a god damn retard

Go over there and die you ****ing idiot, as for me I will serve the Lord. Denounce you little Pussy!

go bo 11-17-2012 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124541)
Go over there and die you ****ing idiot, as for me I will serve the Lord. Denounce you little Pussy!

who you callin pussy??? :mad: :mad: :mad:

what?

oh, nm...

Mr. Flopnuts 11-17-2012 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9123506)
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

This post was reported. Just like the person of Hispanic heritage post was that resulted in Livesteam getting banned for a week. Roy, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, however I'd like to make it clear that while DC is not heavily moderated, racial slurs such as this one will result in bannings. There's a lot of dancing around racism that goes on in this forum, and the other moderators have decided that for now that's okay. It's not okay with me, but I believe in a majority consensus. That said, these blatant slurs will not be tolerated, so be ready for a vacation if you insist on using them.

ROYC75 11-17-2012 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts (Post 9124620)
This post was reported. Just like the person of Hispanic heritage post was that resulted in Livesteam getting banned for a week. Roy, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, however I'd like to make it clear that while DC is not heavily moderated, racial slurs such as this one will result in bannings. There's a lot of dancing around racism that goes on in this forum, and the other moderators have decided that for now that's okay. It's not okay with me, but I believe in a majority consensus. That said, these blatant slurs will not be tolerated, so be ready for a vacation if you insist on using them.

I appreciate the benefit of doubt. All of this political correctness is nonsense when we have our 1st amendments rights.

But if anybody looks at me being racist, all I can say is it's one of the funniest comments on this forum or the history of CP. All of my grand kids are either biracial from the African American, Indian or our Native Indians.Yes, I have grand kids that can pass as Arabs by looking at them.

Proud & Love every one of them and have nothing against the people of their race except a disagreement amongst views.

The Arabs ( idiots, jihadist, etc) have tried to destroy Israel for over 2000 years and they have never learned anything, nada, nothing. How many Arabs are offended by Achmed the Dead Terroist or Jeff Dunham ?

The Liberals of the world think that all Republicans are racist cause they disagree with our POTUS. Crap, we have to dance around this issue because of the idiocy of the Liberals over this. We have to with the Muslim world because Obama says so ?

Political correctness is words of today - tomorrow.

The African American community can have their slag, words, degrading words and use it within their community, yet when it's heard in the whit community, it's their way, their rights,it shouldn't offend the white population. This is nothing more that double standards, screw you people but don't say anything negative that I may take offensive.

I see this crap all the time in the community.....my grand kids speak up and tell them they are wrong to act this way. What do you think happens next ?

Yep, they get looked upon as different, being raised by a white mama, an Uncle Tom family. The facts are they are smarter that the idiots that calls them names because we teach them differently.

Yeah, I should just not use any name at all, people are so butthurt over their insecurities. Let's not offend anybody they might go off !

Let's oppress the 1st Amendment.

BucEyedPea 11-17-2012 10:41 AM

ROY,

The Bill of Rights was added to protect us from the Federal govt. First amendment rights do not apply in a private forum.
You can ban any message in your home even.

|Zach| 11-17-2012 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75 (Post 9124850)
I appreciate the benefit of doubt. All of this political correctness is nonsense when we have our 1st amendments rights.

But if anybody looks at me being racist, all I can say is it's one of the funniest comments on this forum or the history of CP. All of my grand kids are either biracial from the African American, Indian or our Native Indians.Yes, I have grand kids that can pass as Arabs by looking at them.

Proud & Love every one of them and have nothing against the people of their race except a disagreement amongst views.

The Arabs ( idiots, jihadist, etc) have tried to destroy Israel for over 2000 years and they have never learned anything, nada, nothing. How many Arabs are offended by Achmed the Dead Terroist or Jeff Dunham ?

The Liberals of the world think that all Republicans are racist cause they disagree with our POTUS. Crap, we have to dance around this issue because of the idiocy of the Liberals over this. We have to with the Muslim world because Obama says so ?

Political correctness is words of today - tomorrow.

The African American community can have their slag, words, degrading words and use it within their community, yet when it's heard in the whit community, it's their way, their rights,it shouldn't offend the white population. This is nothing more that double standards, screw you people but don't say anything negative that I may take offensive.

I see this crap all the time in the community.....my grand kids speak up and tell them they are wrong to act this way. What do you think happens next ?

Yep, they get looked upon as different, being raised by a white mama, an Uncle Tom family. The facts are they are smarter that the idiots that calls them names because we teach them differently.

Yeah, I should just not use any name at all, people are so butthurt over their insecurities. Let's not offend anybody they might go off !

Let's oppress the 1st Amendment.

It comes as no surprise to me that you don't understand the first amendment.

Pawnmower 11-17-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124528)
of this unholy war, I will stay out of it.

Running your bitch ass mouth isn't "staying out of it" now is it?

Dumb ass hypocrite. Stay out of it then...

STFU

KILLER_CLOWN 11-17-2012 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pawnmower (Post 9124892)
Running your bitch ass mouth isn't "staying out of it" now is it?

Dumb ass hypocrite. Stay out of it then...

STFU

Like you're in it, you like to imagine don't you. Go pretend and head to fairy land little boy. Go get your M16 and parachute and get your ass over there.

Pawnmower 11-17-2012 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124897)
Like you're in it, you like to imagine don't you. Go pretend and head to fairy land little boy. Go get your M16 and parachute and get your ass over there.

Way to take a stand...."stay out of it" yet running your mouth constantly about it.....

You are too dumb to even know the meaning of simple words....

Why can't you practice what you preach?

KILLER_CLOWN 11-17-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pawnmower (Post 9124907)
Way to take a stand...."stay out of it" yet running your mouth constantly about it.....

You are too dumb to even know the meaning of simple words....

Why can't you practice what you preach?

I don't know what kind of alternate reality you're in but I am "out of it" as I won't be heading over there to fight an unwinnable war for either side. Perhaps you missed that part I mentioned earlier, have at it hero.

Pawnmower 11-17-2012 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124910)
I don't know what kind of alternate reality you're in but I am "out of it" as I won't be heading over there to fight an unwinnable war for either side.

I see, so you are saying that unless you actually FLY over there that you aren't supposed to discuss the issue? Unless we go do battle over there we can't have an opinion regarding rocket attacks? IN A ****ING POLITICAL DISCUSSION FORUM?

You are a god damn moron, seriously.

KILLER_CLOWN 11-17-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pawnmower (Post 9124916)
I see, so you are saying that unless you actually FLY over there that you aren't supposed to discuss the issue? Unless we go do battle over there we can't have an opinion regarding rocket attacks? IN A ****ING POLITICAL DISCUSSION FORUM?

You are a god damn moron, seriously.

You only see one side, therefore you are not worth arguing with. I'm telling you that if you feel that strongly take those tough words to action.

L.A. Chieffan 11-17-2012 12:48 PM

Some crazy pics of Gaza getting blown the **** up. Too lazy to post.

Pawnmower 11-17-2012 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN (Post 9124922)
You only see one side.......I'm telling you that if you feel that strongly take those tough words to action.

Totally false, I am absolutely for Palestine having its own state, and against illegal Israeli settlements.

Again, you are a stupid piece of shit with no idea about what you are saying.

I feel strongly about this, so you're saying I should go to Palestine and fight for Hamas?

Honestly you are a pathetic joke, simply trying to shout down discussion in a forum.

"If you feel so strongly that way, shut up and go fight" What a ****ing retard.....

Sorry, I can have an opinion and not want to do violence toward others.

BucEyedPea 11-17-2012 01:26 PM

Pawnmower always the civil poster.


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