Assume I am a tiny man and I am dropped onto the fluid surface of the master cylinder reservoir and I have to travel to the pressure face of the slave cylinder. Are you telling me that I don't have to swim through brake fluid the whole way, but that I will need to hike part of the distance because the system is not completely filled with fluid? Show me a schematic.

I take it you didn't read much, at all. In all likelihood I have more experience owning and operating a business than he does. And according to him, I've struck out twice now. Which makes your point moot. On top of that, I take it you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of automotive schooling, as Pitt State is one of the very BEST in the region. I actually make more money because of my degrees and certs than my buddy who went to UTI, which is widely regarded as "the best" school in the country. Obviously my Pitt State experience isn't as bad as you seem to think it is.

I'd actually be surprised if his business is even marginally profitable going off of his ticket numbers, I can't say for certain what he should be pulling, but I'd doubt it is at 300k given his location and "competition" he touted earlier.

This is going to be hard to describe unless you have the understanding of the system that I do, but I'll attempt to answer the question.

On one hand, no. I am not saying that. On the other hand, you are under the assumption that the lines are 100% filled, 100% of the time. That isn't the case here, which is the point I keep trying to drive through to you.

Terrible analogy here, but basically, sort of yes.

I'll try my best to explain in the most basic of forms and to a degree it will be inaccurate, only to get you into the broadened idea of how this works.

In a sense, when the car is on and running, the system is almost always pressurized to a degree, so that you won't have to hike your happy ass from point a to point b. However, it is impossible for the braking system to operate under constant pressure. There has to be a relief. Furthermore, different braking pressures must be applied at different points of the vehicle (proportioning valve). Furthermore, there are times when the system is not "pressurized" (IE, the lines are not 100% full) and the mechanic action of the system itself is required to sufficiently work the brakes.

If I can give you any example that doesn't require extreme cranial usage to understand, I'll put it like this. When your car is off, key off, and you pump your brakes a few times, you notice a change in pedal pressure. Do you know why?

No. Enlighten me.

Now you're just trolling. Goodnight.

No, honestly I'm not. I'm one of the straightest shooters on here. I'm still skeptical, but curious and willing to learn.

If the lines are not full all of the time I would think there has to be a way to vent air from the lines. This is the part that makes me skeptical.

Ever put brake fluid into your master cylinder? Ever seen bubbles come out of it?

1. Yes.

2. Don't recall. But lets assume yes to cut the 20 question short. How is that air entering the system? Is it always vented through the reservoir?

That isn't air entering the system, that is actually the main source of where exits the system. In order for a system like this to work (The Modern Power Assisted ABS Braking System), you have to either have a source of pressure, or a source of vacuum to "move" the fluid through the system.

Furthermore, you have to be able to "alleviate" the pressure required to adequately stop the car from moving, without making you strain yourself.

Enter the wonderful contraption that is "power" brakes and the vacuum booster. For brakes to function properly, fluid has to actually cycle through the system. It cannot just sit stagnantly, as this causes excess wear and breakdown, and can further harm braking components should a contamination arise.

Anyways, the reason you feel the pedal get stiffer and stiffer as you pump the brakes in your car, is because you have no actual vacuum. The Check valve is operating to allow any air to be pulled out of the vacuum booster which no longer functions to amplify pedal force to the brakes. In this sense, not only is it harder to brake, but because of the other vacuum functions applied to your braking system, fluid is stagnant and the system is not functioning properly.

I'm not going to go into detail on the 35 other contraptions and functions added to power assisted brakes over the years, like ABS, prop valves, etc. But rest assured, there are many ways for the system to relieve pressure air pressure, and the common way is through the master cylinder after pumping that air bubble all the way through the maze that is your brakes.

On top of this, all cars are designed so that fluid from the master cylinder reaches the calipers almost simultaneously under the event of a malfunction.

What this means is, almost every car has brake lines nearly the EXACT same length, and in performance applications EXACT to the .00001th inch.

The reason for this is quite simple. If suddenly there is a loss of "pressure" in the braking system and air and fluid have mixed, the system is designed to bring air in, and "compress" to move the fluid furthest down the pathway to the calipers to assist in any way as a last minute "failsafe" to provide braking force.

This does not always function the same, and almost never functions in an environment where you have 4 brakes working properly, but instead the system will try to "source" out the "bad" brake.

In a sense you've got Left Front, Right Front, Left Rear, and Right Rear. If the Right Rear is bad, the braking will try to apply itself to the Front Right and Front Left with minimal braking to the rear. This is done through valve bodies in the braking system monitored additionally by your ABS system. It does this to prevent A. A wheel from locking up, and B. The care from braking too harshly on one side or the other.



My point from the start, is that you are "messing" with a fail safe by reducing the length of the specifically measured and crafted brake lines. I didn't realize some jerkoff shadetree mechanic was going to come in and act like he knew everything about my job and industry practices and disagree with me on topics that aren't even subject to his expertise.

Lastly, Brakes are not just Brakes. Cars are no longer Legos like Shadetree would like you to believe, the systems in these cars are so technologically advanced and complicated that it takes smart individuals with degrees and certifications to go through school so they can understand the "W's" of functionality, so that when shit hits the fan, things get fixed and taken care of.

Hope that explains everything for everyone. My PM box is open if any of you have questions, please do us all a favor and have your cars worked on my professionals if you think the skill required is above your ability, and when you are looking for a good mechanic, make sure they have certifications AND experience, not just one or the other.

I won't be replying in this thread any further unless Mr. Shadetree decides he's going to start answering my questions about his ASE Certs.

absoutely NO VEHICLE OUT THERE HAS BRAKE LINES THE SAME LENGTH. the fluid does NOT circulate through a system, it goes back and forth a little in the lines but it stays there. the vacuum booster puts NO vacuum actually into the braking system ????HUH???

it helps you apply pressure to the master cylinder by using a diaphram.

and again on a FORD the drivers side line, which the passenger side line tee's into is at least eight feet SHORTER than the passenger and both work off the same port on the master cylinder.

but he worked on a 2004 acura...


i'm not sure what you can or cant google about ASE certs, because i didnt need to try, BUT i will say that i dont feel like laying my whole life line out for you to try and pick apart, or copy.

i think the people on this site that actually give a shit know what i'm about


i know you have set out,And FAILED, twice but dont hold it against me because i didnt.


and my ticket totals dont reflect 100 dollar + an hour laber rates, in my area we only get around 60.

i wont respond any more to the troll

one more thing... not for the troll but for anyone with a brain reading this, if a car will work air bubbles out itself WHY WOULD YOU EVER NEED TO BLEED THE SYSTEM? pumping it with the car running should self bleed it, right?


no.

So maybe it got lost in the bitchy back and forth, but did MO ever manage to remove the line without destroying it?

Yea, I don’t even give a shit to go wading through all the posturing.
So, MO, um did you?

It is clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about past the old concept of Lefty Loosey, Righty Tighty.

I didn't "fail" at all. We remained profitable up until our last days, twice. Running a profit is not failing, and if you had the opportunities we had, you'd probably want to close down your shop or sell it too.

I don't need to "copy" your life story, I've fairly well got the gist of your experience and career already.

You claim to be an ASE certified Master Tech, but cannot tell me what pathway you took and what tests you took and how you scored on them.

You claim to be an ASE certified Master Tech, but lack the intelligence to actually be a legitimate ASE certified Master Tech.

You are nothing more than a shadetree mechanic without legitimate certifications that are up to date and in good standing. You work at (probably don't even run) a mom and pop shop in the middle of ****ing nowhere, and never went to school for your career.

Yet you are on here arguing with me about theories, hypothesis, and the technical intricacies of modern technology in automobiles, something I went to school for and became certified in, and you didn't.

Truth is, you didn't ever comprehend 1/4th of what I just said, yet you are arguing.

GO HOME SHADETREE, YOU ARE DRUNK

You literally understood NOTHING about the working theory behind equal length brake lines in a catastrophic failure, yet you're trying to give me shit for it.

This is absurd.

You are so dumb.

Your analogy for the brake booster basically implies that I'm taking my household vacuum and just sticking that puppy in the master cylinder and turning her on. Yeah, that'll work.

Let me ask you a question. If fluid isn't meant to move through the brake system, why do we, as mechanics who know our shit, always check the color of the fluid in the master cylinder? Why do we add fluid to the master cylinder at all? If the fluid cannot move to where it is needed, how can fluid move from the master cylinder to my left rear caliper?

If air gets trapped in a system where fluid doesn't move, your argument that we have bleeders on the calipers so that we can bleed air of the system is invalid, since the fluid wouldn't be able to move there.

After all, how can a system that is 100% always full of fluid, according to you, manage to pressurize itself enough to move its mass out of a bleeder so that whatever compressible air that is in the lines which are apparently always 100% full of fluid, can exit?

Oh, right, because the vacuum assisted brakes allow us to multiply pedal pressure to force fluid through the lines through the path of least resistance exiting through the bleeder at the caliper with the air bubble hopefully exiting as well, because the fluid in the braking system is...........you guessed it, DESIGNED TO MOVE SO THAT YOU CAN.............................Bleed the brakes.

Jesus Christ you are dumb.

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/a...rigoldgtfo.gif

Nobody knows lol

Sauto is a stand-up dude, who has earned the respect and trust of many of the posters on this board.

I do not care if he is a stand up dude or not.

He's challenging my expertise. I've thrown down the proverbial gauntlets, he has answered none of my questions to back up his allegations, and I've done nothing but comply.

Stand up dude or not, he bit off more than he could chew with me. I don't care if 5,000 people support him or not. The guy needs to learn when to admit defeat or when he's in WAY over his head.

Aside from that, I really don't have a problem with him. I just don't like his "claim the world" attitude when he can't back it up.

Edit: And Mr. Shadetree over here basically called me stupid for furthering my education in a field that is growing more technologically advanced by the second, more than just about every field on the planet. And then tried to state that I was a failure because I ran two profitable businesses and shut them down because I wanted to A. Further my education and B. Move on to a more rewarding job.

That, more than anything pisses me off.