****Official 2014 STL Cardinals thread ****
 

2011 WS Championship
2012 one win from another WS
2013 two wins from another WS title
2014?

• This is a franchise that has made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons.
• Reached three World Series in the last decade, and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
• Our new Manager has more post season experience than any other manager in baseball, except the Giants manager.
• Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
• 60 post season wins since 2004. 20+ wins more than any other team.
• Only one of the last 14 seasons has been a losing one.

Keep Axford over Mujica.

Mujica is toast. Axford seems to have something left in the tank but how much money and years does he want?

Strauss seems to feel that Profar is out and Andrus has the highest probability of being our new SS.

Heard him on his radio show. Thinks because of the salary, the less prospects we will have to give up and makes it more desirable for Mo. Thinks we can get him for Lynn and Adams at the most. Maybe Lynn alone with a AA prospect.

Strauss is an idiot, FWIW.

Andrus is due $15 million/season starting in 2015 and is guaranteed at that figure through 2018 when he can either opt out if he's performing or continue to get paid too much through 2022 if he's struggling.

I'd probably give up Lynn for him, but wouldn't include much beyond that. His contract makes surrendering significant talent in return for him a losing proposition, IMO.

And Hamas is right - Strauss is an idiot. He's a trolling asshole who doesn't seem to have any sources anymore and lives to goad his readership.

Started listening to STL radio on the way into and from work time to time. Seemed an arrogant fellow.

So we only get him for 3 years if he is good but if he sucks we are stuck with a big contract? WTF?

You always have well thought ideas on baseball and the Cardinals. Where do you think we can get our offense for next year? What do you think are the best moves?

Damn hard to say.

We're not going to be able to survive on RISP figures again - we damn sure won't hit .330 and I'd be surprised if we got to .300.

Honestly, living and dying by BABIP and doubles power sounds good in theory but I'm still not sure it's sustainable. I'd like to see us add power, speed or both to the lineup. One way to do it would be to determine that Wong is ready to hit at this level, move Carpenter over to 3b and Wong in to 2b. I just hate losing the surplus value of Carp at 2b. Wong's speed and bat control is intriguing, but he's sure looked overmatched at this level. That said, if we can make a 2 WAR player out of him, he's an upgrade over Freese (who he'd essentially be replacing in the lineup).

I honestly think our best hope for offensive improvement is already on the roster - Adams. Yeah, he has some holes in his swing but the guy has hit at every level. His power is unreal and while he won't help our lefty struggles any, he's at least on the positive half of the platoon. I'd see if we can fit him in at 1b and Craig in RF. I know Craig's lower body injuries make it more of a question, but I don't see any kind of decent bat available for us that won't cost an insane amount (i.e. Elsbury to CF).

I'd like to see Reynolds brought in as a bench bat.

Baseball just isn't a sport for splashy FA pickups - most of them fail miserably. I think we need to lean on our internal hitting talent, leverage our internal pitching talent for a young SS controlled for some time and hope for a rebound year out of Jay. I also wouldn't cut bait on Freese - maybe he comes into camp and his legs feel better and the Wong move won't be necessary. If not, he's still a better option than what we've had from the right side this year.

There aren't easy answers. There never are. We have to be smart about this roster because there's very little room for error with baseball's salary structure going nuts again.

O.City's a half-wit that doesn't know anything about baseball.

There - threads merged.

Hey. Come on.

I'm getting shit on in two threads, and it's only Tuesday

I wouldn't say he's an idiot, but he is a huge ****ing douche.

He is the one who broke the Rasmus trade and kept on reporting that the Cardinals were interested in trading him after Mo repeatedly denied that rumor.

No way we will replicate that again.
I like the Wong move. Freese hasn't been right for a long time.

What about SS?

If you cock****s want to be constantly updated on the Cardinals in the offseason, just refresh this link periodically.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/st_lou...als/index.html

Lotta hostility int he cardinals threads tonight.


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If you want an interesting risk-reward proposition at short, we could just sign Peralta.

The guy looks like he'd be a terrible fielder, but the defensive metrics really like him. Obviously you have the serious PED concerns and one might wonder if he'll fall of a cliff like Melky Cabrera did. He might be had for 2-3 years given those uncertainties, and unlike Drew, would not cost a draft pick and has been one of the most durable players in the game at the position.

Who's the best long term option at short that's available? Via trade etc.

Yeah WTF is up with that? The pain should have subsided to a dull ache.

How far away is our home grown SS? Do we even have one?

That's debatable.

From the perspective of what this team needs (RH power and good defense) it's Tulo. But is he even available, and what would he cost?

The next best option is Castro. He has shown he can hit at the ML level and has the range to be a good defensive SS. He's got character issues though.

Profar is the next best target, but he'll cost a ton in prospects and he was one of the worst players in baseball last year.

After that it's Drew, but he'll cost 4/50 and a first round pick, and he's a terrible, terrible hitter against lefties.

Peralta won't cost a pick, and he's a horse, but how much of his offensive profile is PED-related?

DJ loves Pastornicky, but I've seen the dude play like three ****ing games. I have no idea bout him.

You could also hope against hope that Greg Garcia turns into something.

Infinity and no.

Where would Castro hit, lineup wise?

It seems he'd profile as a good #2 hitter, but carpenter does the same.

He takes no walks. Eight hole, maybe seven depending upon who the CF is and if Wong is playing.

That's my 'break glass' measure.

If we can't make a reasonable deal for a young guy, we target Peralta, improve our offense significantly against LHP and actually dedicate some resources to developing a long-term SS. We seem to be treating SS about like the Chiefs treat QB - patch the hole and hope a difference maker falls in our laps.

That said, he was hideous in 2011 and will be 32 next year. And the PID cloud should probably not be ignored.

There's a real chance he might suck. But if he comes relatively cheap and short term, he's a viable option. I'd far prefer have him for 2 years/$16 million than Drew at 4 years, $48 million and lose a pick. And that may be an overstatement of his value on the market.

I'm learning.

I'm the offspring of someone who things saber metrics are a bad joke. It's a process

Probably very far.

Garcia, by many accounts, has progressed defensively and I like his offensive profile. But the organization doesn't seem to see him as a legit SS.

I liked Jackson, but he just pissed down his leg every time he got a shot. Sorry, but I'm ready to move on. MLB isn't going to give you infinite chances and he's done nothing to seize the opportunities he's been given.

Alex Mejia was a kid we went a little over slot for out of ASU a couple years ago before he blew out his knee. He had a promising start in A ball, but struggled at A+. For a 22 yr old college draftee, that's pretty alarming. He probably has 1 more season to establish himself as a legitimate prospect.

Peoples-Walls may be the only legit prospect in the org. He's 19, appears like he can probably stick at SS and had a very nice 2013. That said, it was his 3rd year in RK ball and he struck out in 1/3 of his ABs - that bodes extremely poorly for even A ball, let alone the upper minors.

Mercado's 18 and got beat up in RK ball this year. Malik Collymore is a draft pick I loved that we paid enough to get him to walk away from his Mizzou commit. Hugely athletic, toolsy as hell but they were playing him at 2b (blocked by Mercado at SS). He struck out an insane 23 times in 57 ABs. Even if he or Mercado come around, they're 5 years away at best.

There's nobody there - at all. Unless they're going to patch this thing together for the next 3-5 years, they've got nothing. And even if they do, the kids in the system aren't exactly sure things.

That's why I think they need to make a move for Castro, Profar or Andrus. This situation isn't going to resolve itself.

If he gets his shit back in order, he's a great fit at the 6 hole. Doubles power, speed that can be used in front of the 7 and 8 place hitters.

If he can get his OBP back to the .333 range, I wouldn't even have a problem with him in the 2 hole behind Carpenter. He's not going to draw many walks, but his approach is much like Craig's when he's right. A .290 hitter with speed and 15 HR pop can do a lot of work between Carpenter and Holliday.

Where will they put Tavares next year in the lineup?

AAA.

Until they think he's been humbled and/or is ready to play CF for Jay. Or if Craig's legs can't handle RF.

I don't think they want him to go north with the club. A) It creates a service time issue and B) this year suggests to me that he still has more work to do, I think the club agrees.

I assumed he'd come out of ST in cf, especially after mo's comments.

I really hated seeing him injured, because I think you're prolly right with what they do with him.

He just has to be ready for CF by September.

Jay's a credible CFer during the regular season. It isn't until the post-season that he becomes a worthless, sniveling bitch.

Yeah, I'd just like to see him get some ab's with the big club by then.

I'm not really sure he's a cf'er either. If ellsburry wasn't his age, and cost as much, I'd be somewhat interested in him in cf.

:cuss:
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I've given up.

There is never a peep from anyone about the Braves looking to move him or a team looking to acquire him.

I do think he'd be a great option at a reasonable cost, but there's no smoke. There's not even any kindling.

Castro would probably be the cheapest with th highest upside.


I'm a bit terrified they end up paying Drew.

I doubt they sign Drew, but even if they do, it's a significant upgrade for a team that is ready to win right now.

They had better get someone new in at SS.......... just saying

Doesn't make sense at all. Beltran is probably out because they want Adams in the lineup. Now we trade Adams? Beltran out to me doesn't make sense either. You take our most clutch hitter who has a history of leg and foot problems and move him back to the outfield? Its either that or keep Jay in the starting lineup which makes us even worse versus lefties with Tavares also being a lefty. We don't really have any other position players able to make the leap to the bigs in our farm system right now.

You're contradicting yourself.

If "Beltran out" doesn't make sense to you, then the team absolutely needs to move Adams. There's no place for him to play if you're not going to get Craig off 1b and Adams just hit 17 bombs in half a season. His value's unlikely to ever get higher.

If "Adams out" doesn't make sense to you, then Beltran has to go.

I've stated my preference: bank the 1st rounder, save the $14 million, let Beltran walk and get a lefty slugger into the lineup. Craig can play 1b against lefties to rest his legs and we'll find a RH-hitting OFer like we should've done last year when Moe's dumb-ass went after Wigginton instead of Hairston.

Use this thread, not the 2013 thread.

You could do a lot worse than Drew.

I agree.

I want no part of Castro.

Two words: Scott Boras

So you'd rather pay the same amount in $$, lose a first round pick and get an older player for 2 fewer years? Because that's exactly what you're talking about.

I'd rather roll with Kozma next year than pay $50 million for Drew and surrender a draft pick. Drew's overrated as hell - he always has been. He has no clue against LH pitching and he's a Fenway creation that put up an OPS of .687 away from home with an OBP less than .300.

Could you do worse than Drew? I guess.

But could you do worse than Drew at $12 million/year during his decline years while also surrendering a first round pick?

Honestly, you'd have to try pretty damn hard to manage it.

I'd take Peralta 100 times out of 100 over Drew.

If it means I have to have that lousy Castro on my team, yes.
I agree. I would too. And Ellsberry.

No can sit here with a straight face and say they want Ellsbury if they are five percent worried about anyone else's injury history.

You have been high on Drew all year. Giving up a draft pick to get Drew is a tough one to swallow. Those draft picks are what allow us to compete with the BILLION TV contracts of the Yankees, LA etc. hard to part with. But when I think of Kozma starting next year...:shake:

I didn't really think Drew would get that qualifying offer. That changes things.

Lots or rumors/Blogs/talk that the Yankees have already made a large offer to Beltran. I'd hate to give up our extra draft pick for Drew.

Why do you think they are hellbent on signing Drew? It's one possibility of many, but probably among the least likely. There's a better chance of them flipping some pitching to the Angels for Erick Aybar than there is them signing Drew.

Yeah I don't get the Drew thoughts. He's gonna cost enough that it could hinder you from potentially keeping some young talent you've developed.

If that's the case, we need a player who's a hell of a lot better than Drew.

He's really not. The team is going to clear close to $50 million off the rolls if they decline arb w/ Axford.

I don't see the Cardinals/Mo/Matheny going into the season without a veteran reliever in the bullpen.

We are not loaded with cash. Everyone gets a raise. We don't benefit any more than other clubs. We have raises coming. But, we do have the money to sign a top ten FA or pick up a high $ contract in a trade. Just one $15-$17 million for 5-6 years pick up.

The Cardinals had $116 million in contracts this year and currently have $75-ish million committed next year to the following players

Holliday
Jay
Freese
Kozma
Wong
Carpenter
Adams
Descalso
Molina

Wainwright
Wacha
Miller
Lynn
Kelly
Martinez
Choate
Rosenthal
Motte
Garcia
Siegrist
Maness

And that's not counting several fringe pitching arms that would make the league minimum.

The Cardinals have a ton of payroll flexibility.

The last thing the Cardinals need to do is turn into the Oklahoma City Thunder and ruin their chances at building a dynasty because ownership ends up bullshitting the fans into a need to save money.

This year, sure.


I was talking the latter part of his deal.

By the time that is going down Garcia and Holliday will be off the books. That's $25+ per year

This year. It's those later years of contracts that doom teams.
Come on man, the Cardinals are not cheap. They spend money. We have a top ten payroll with a shitty TV/Cable contract. They have done a good job generating money without a gigantic TV contract.

Wonder what the absolute least the Rockies would take for Tulo

Wainwright, Craig, and Molina are the only two players on this team with contracts that run past 2016.

**** Adams and Miller for Tulo. Give them Lynn/Adams.

http://youtu.be/CeHrq_Fs1vk?t=1m

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/CeHrq_Fs1vk?start=60&end=90<code></code>" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Did he shoot the Sandman or something?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/1...ed-lowrie.html

I guess those Tulowitzki talks arent going so well? Lowrie is both an offensive and defensive downgrade from Tulo.

FWIW, Bengie Molina headed to the Rangers as 1B coach.

Yes, it sure would suck to have a SS who would give you 3.6 more WAR than the guy who played the position last year, who rated as the second best offensive SS in baseball last year.

Not sure of your point.

Tulo matched Lowrie's production at the plate in 150 less ABs and is much much better defensively.

Lowrie just finished his very first season of over 100 games.

Nevermind that the A's probably don't even want to discuss trading him right now since Russell is still at least a year away.

The guy is glass, you want no part of him.

His point's pretty obvious.

Nobody's arguing that Lowrie is an equal to Tulo - but we're also not talking a straight across trade. The presumption is that Lowrie would cost substantially less than Tulo would and that the difference in both $$ and prospects surrendered would more than offset the value lost between Lowrie and Tulo.

But Lowrie's range seems to be diminishing quite a bit and as has been noted, he's not terribly healthy.

That said, if we could have him for Seigrist and a B arm, I'd probably take them up on it. Lots of lefties in the system.

I would prefer to keep Wacha, Miller, Martinez, and Oscar this offseason. I'm okay with Adams and Lynn being traded so long it's for a long-term get (Tulo, Profar-not the same package, I know)

You guys see what Rosenthal said would be a "fair" trade that would get us Tulo?

Craig/Miller/Adams/Rosenthal and another prospect

WTF is he smoking? Mo isn't that stupid is he? I'm assuming some Rockies VP gave him that when asked what would it take to get Tulo. At least I hope so.

I'd take that trade and be happy.

Why is there no talk of Arizona as a trade pardner? They have two SS's and two CF's? They need pitching, 1B and 3B.

Sounds like the Cards discussed Fowler with the Rockies but doesn't appear to be a match. Thank goodness.

Let's hope he isn't, I love Tulo's potential to this lineup, but subtracting Adams and Craig would make no sense, particularly with Beltran leaving. Miller and Adams and a couple of our B prospects like Jenkins (he's still all projection) and/or Gast/Lyons would be my limit. That would be a heck of a haul for the Rockies and would fill needs. They get a mile high bopper to replace Tulo's offense plus a top of the rotation starter and a potential high upside prospect plus a stable bullpen middle relief arm.

There are some Gregorius rumblings.

There's another guy I'd give up Seigrist for and little else. His aggregate numbers paint a far prettier picture than most of his season did. From about July 8 onward, in a similar number of ABs to Kozma, his performance was comparable (.200 BA, sub .600 OPS, the whole works).

Scouts were worried he couldn't hit at this level and the latter 2/3 of the season seemed to support that concern.

Gregorius may end up being a real dog out there.

It's not.

The outcomes of these major trades of late have sided so strongly with the teams unloading the high salary that teams are going to stay far far away from those deals going forward, IMO. Look at how badly the Angels have hurt themselves with trades over the last couple of years; they're the most obvious example.

Starting with the Texiera trade, you'd be hard pressed to find a major 'vet for prospects' deal where the prospects side of the trade didn't absolutely annihilate the vet side in terms of value and raw production. Holliday may be the best example.

I'm not saying that I have done this, but just for the other viewers out there:

Has anyone actually watched a baseball game from beginning to end?

first and last warning before banning from this thread.

Do they want us to polish their world series trophy for them too?

Craig, Miller, Adams and Rosenthal didn't win us a WS, why would that win one for Colorado?

Are you that worried about Cargo and Nolan Arrenado? Because that's about all they have left.

It's still a stupid deal, don't get me wrong. But the Rockies would still be largely irrelevant. It underscores why I don't think a Tulo deal's gonna get made. That deal would infuriate the fanbase and yet they'd still likely struggle to reach 85 wins. If that happens, the fans will just remain angry.

Businessmen aren't likely to do that.

Rebuilding by trading fan favorites - 'face of the franchise' type guys - is extremely difficult for that very reason.