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-   -   Local How do Gun Shows work with regard to background checks? Should there be checks? (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=267962)

Trivers 12-23-2012 10:55 AM

How do Gun Shows work with regard to background checks? Should there be checks?
 
Watching the talking heads shows this AM; and several heads are stating that anyone can go to a gun show and buy weapons.

True or not?

What are the pros and cons of background checks at gun shows?

I'm looking at buying a Saiga shotgun at Fleet Farm...and I will have a background check performed on me. If I were to purchase it at a gun show, would I just pay and walk out?

Dayze 12-23-2012 10:58 AM

i've always seen vendors that are selling/in the middle of the transaction on the phone filling out paperwork.

not sure what that paperwork is, but still. maybe it's because they have an FFL license. I see dudes walking around with their rifles with a for sale sign on them.

I don't hink you can buy a pistol at a gunshow without a background check. I 'think'

RNR 12-23-2012 11:30 AM

There are websites that operate just like Craigslist. Dealers and private parties advertise on them. Some require a CC or purchase permit to buy, many do not. I have only bought one gun that way. I emailed the guy with my phone number. We talked for quite awhile because he is stationed at Bragg and so the conversation was about more than the gun. He told me he found out about the site and it was the first time he used it, he was a little nervous about how to handle the transfer of ownership.

I told him I would provide a photo copy of my drivers license and he would have to provide me with his receipt. If he was comfortable with that I would buy the gun. I met him at his apartment and wrote out a bill of sale on the copy of my ID. We printed our names and signed it including the serial number of the gun I kept a copy and the original receipt signed by him to me. I have decided to get my conceal and carry just to make it easier in the future. That will also allow me to have the gun loaded in my truck when I am going out to shoot. I highly doubt I will ever carry one on me. I have never purchased one at a gun show~

BucEyedPea 12-23-2012 11:51 AM

How come we never hear of any killing by guns at gun shows?

Has this ever happened?

banyon 12-23-2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9234766)
How come we never hear of any killing by guns at gun shows?

Has this ever happened?

As if that's the point.

BucEyedPea 12-23-2012 12:53 PM

I'm not referring to the point, obviously. I just thought I'd ask another question about Gun shows.

verbaljitsu 12-23-2012 01:13 PM

The overwhelming vast majority of sellers at gun shows are licensed dealers. Any purchase from a licensed dealer requires a NICS background check.

There are also private sellers, people that show up with 1 or 2 guns to sell. If you purchase from a private seller, then there is no NICS check. There isn't even a process for a private seller to go through a NICS check. Only licensed dealers have access to it.

People talk about the gun show loophole, but there is nothing unique about a gun show. Private sellers can sell private property anywhere.

Additionally, it is worth noting that every gun show I have ever been to is swarming with municipal and federal law enforcement. The ATF is always there. It would be the single dumbest place to go to illegally purchase a firearm.

banyon 12-23-2012 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9235256)
I'm not referring to the point, obviously. I just thought I'd ask another question about Gun shows.

yes, what a great question.

If you'd ever been to a gun show, youd be surprised it sounds like to learn that they have gun control inside them.

Most you have to either check the firearm at the door or submit it for inspection and unloading. No conceal carrying either.

banyon 12-23-2012 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu (Post 9235454)
The overwhelming vast majority of sellers at gun shows are licensed dealers. Any purchase from a licensed dealer requires a NICS background check.

There are also private sellers, people that show up with 1 or 2 guns to sell. If you purchase from a private seller, then there is no NICS check. There isn't even a process for a private seller to go through a NICS check. Only licensed dealers have access to it.

People talk about the gun show loophole, but there is nothing unique about a gun show. Private sellers can sell private property anywhere.

Additionally, it is worth noting that every gun show I have ever been to is swarming with municipal and federal law enforcement. The ATF is always there. It would be the single dumbest place to go to illegally purchase a firearm.

While the bolder part is undoubtedly true it does not have to be. Why should it be different than privately selling a car where you have to register the sale to obtain a valid title?

verbaljitsu 12-23-2012 01:46 PM

The reason why you have to register the vehicle to get the title is so the state gets its sales tax.

I suppose the biggest reason why it is different is that gun registration is step number 1 to gun confiscation.

But if you are referring to background checks rather than "registration" then there is currently no apparatus to do it. If you think we should just do all private sales through FFL dealers, then all you are accomplishing is raising the price of every firearm by $50. These high profile mass shootings aside, the overwhelming majority of gun crime is committed with illegal firearms. Absent a registration system, it is also impossible to track compliance with a law that requires all private sales to go through NICS.

banyon 12-23-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu (Post 9235811)
The reason why you have to register the vehicle to get the title is so the state gets its sales tax.

I suppose the biggest reason why it is different is that gun registration is step number 1 to gun confiscation.

But if you are referring to background checks rather than "registration" then there is currently no apparatus to do it. If you think we should just do all private sales through FFL dealers, then all you are accomplishing is raising the price of every firearm by $50. These high profile mass shootings aside, the overwhelming majority of gun crime is committed with illegal firearms. Absent a registration system, it is also impossible to track compliance with a law that requires all private sales to go through NICS.

There are several states that require registration amd have for years. Is there evidence they are confiscating them?

I don't think the extra 50$ for an FFL check (actually $20 where i live) is going to ruin the gun industry. It hasnt in the places where it is done. heck every online sale mostly has to go through an FFL if it is shipped, and those sales have increased exponentially. It's a reasonable tradeoff given these circumstances.

verbaljitsu 12-23-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banyon (Post 9235955)
There are several states that require registration amd have for years. Is there evidence they are confiscating them?

I don't think the extra 50$ for an FFL check (actually $20 where i live) is going to ruin the gun industry. It hasnt in the places where it is done. heck every online sale mostly has to go through an FFL if it is shipped, and those sales have increased exponentially. It's a reasonable tradeoff given these circumstances.

1st, federal law preempts state law. States with registration requirements can't confiscate weapons in the status quo because of federal law. If we had federal registration, we are only one crazy guy killing 20 kindergartners away from people throwing their rights away entirely.

2nd, registration laws have been used both federally and at the state level as a backdoor ban before. The law says you have to register the gun to be legal, but they close the registry or the CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) refuses to register weapons. Ergo, no legal way to own a firearm.

3rd, it isn't a reasonable tradeoff considering these circumstances. These circumstances are exactly why rights are enshrined, so public passion doesn't destroy them.

4th, my position is not that $50 extra per gun will destroy the industry. I doubt it will have much of an effect at all. But it is a tradeoff to a law that accomplishes nothing. Online retailers are popular because even with the transfer fee, they are still cheaper because you avoid sales tax and the online retailers drop ship and have incredibly reduced cost. Your plan would add 10% to the cost of most firearms. It won't accomplish much of anything. Recall that Connecticut requires registration of the exact type of weapon used in the shooting. Gun registration in Chicago, D.C. and elsewhere has been a complete failure.

KChiefer 12-23-2012 05:22 PM

On a not unrelated note, I've been thinking about "black market firearms." The black market is a big argument by gun advocates because "criminals will just get them in the black market."

I don't deny that it exists in a huge way, but why does it, and how does it? Does anyone here know a black market gun dealer?

I mean, you could go anywhere in the nation and find a pot dealer. Is it the same with illegal gun dealers? I'd like to doubt that. If you took a poll, a vast majority of us would rather live next to a pot dealer than an illegal arms dealer.

I get that much like the war on drugs, combating gun trafficking seems futile, but I refuse to accept that we don't try or try harder! Public perception alone should make the war on gun trafficking easier than the war on drugs.

Hog Farmer 12-25-2012 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KChiefer (Post 9236736)
On a not unrelated note, I've been thinking about "black market firearms." The black market is a big argument by gun advocates because "criminals will just get them in the black market."

I don't deny that it exists in a huge way, but why does it, and how does it? Does anyone here know a black market gun dealer?

I mean, you could go anywhere in the nation and find a pot dealer. Is it the same with illegal gun dealers? I'd like to doubt that. If you took a poll, a vast majority of us would rather live next to a pot dealer than an illegal arms dealer.

I get that much like the war on drugs, combating gun trafficking seems futile, but I refuse to accept that we don't try or try harder! Public perception alone should make the war on gun trafficking easier than the war on drugs.


I would imagine black market guns are guns that have been stolen for the most part.

A Salt Weapon 12-25-2012 08:35 AM

I would much rather live next to an illegal arms dealer than a pot dealer, maybe I'm in the minority on that one.
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