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-   -   U.S. Issues Is a default on our debts a violation of the consitution? (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=268570)

BigRedChief 01-06-2013 07:40 PM

Is a default on our debts a violation of the consitution?
 
We pay our debts. It is mandated in the constitution. Congress authorized and spent the money. We have to pay it back. Thats my and our debtors belief.

14th Amendment Section 4:
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; butall such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Poll question:
For Congress to default on our debts that they authorized is a violation on the constitution is it not?

KC native 01-06-2013 07:45 PM

That clearly refers to paying soldiers/people who serve this country. So, no.

BigRedChief 01-06-2013 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC native (Post 9290338)
That clearly refers to paying soldiers/people who serve this country. So, no.

You interpret the constitution? You a constitutional lawyer? Or just a regular joe opinion?

KC native 01-06-2013 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9290392)
You interpret the constitution? You a constitutional lawyer? Or just a regular joe opinion?

Regular joe opinion.

go bowe 01-06-2013 08:32 PM

brc, there's arguments both ways...

some argue that the language includes all public debt, since pensions and bounties for civil war are "included" rather than being the sole kind of public debt...

others argue that in the context of the amendment itself, it clearly refers to civil war era debts and by implication not public debt in general...

i think the constitution has grown a great deal at the supreme court and original intent is a lesser consideration in adjudicating constitutional rights...

imo, the president should seriously consider invoking the 14th amendment and tell congress to shove the debt ceiling...

BucEyedPea 01-06-2013 08:46 PM

So add an Amendment to cancel that line first. Simple. Problem over.

BucEyedPea 01-06-2013 08:49 PM

And... this question is asked as if ...
 
...we follow the Constitution already anyways.

I say the tax and spend clause applies only to the items enumerated in the Constitution...anything else shouldn't even be spent.

...but since we don't follow it, when we add our Amendment it should stipulate this should be the case.

teedubya 01-06-2013 09:29 PM

Since Congress no longer controls the money... the Scam Federal Reserve Bank System does... it makes that amendment moot, IMO.

BucEyedPea 01-06-2013 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 9290719)
Since Congress no longer controls the money... the Scam Federal Reserve Bank System does... it makes that amendment moot, IMO.

A very good point, imo. When there's fraud, there's no contract for everyone else. Works for me here.

RINGLEADER 01-06-2013 10:54 PM

Since Congress won't pass real budgets, why not just pass a law saying we'll increase the debt limit by the amount needed to service the debt. No more chance of default.

Of course we all know it would never happen, lest the politicians have an "issue" to posture around.

mlyonsd 01-07-2013 10:40 AM

If the ceiling isn't raised we won't default. We easily have enough revenue to cover our debt service.

What we won't be able to do is borrow more, which means we will be forced to cut spending.

But default isn't an option and this argument is silly and just a democrat scare tactic term.

BucEyedPea 01-07-2013 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyonsd (Post 9291862)
If the ceiling isn't raised we won't default. We easily have enough revenue to cover our debt service.

What we won't be able to do is borrow more, which means we will be forced to cut spending.

But default isn't an option and this argument is silly and just a democrat scare tactic term.

Default is an option—a wonderful one. A bucket of cold water to wake up the American ovine herd.
It's politicians, mainstream economists, and the media tell us that a U.S. government debt default would be disastrous. The malinvestment that has caused our crisis in the first place would be corrected and it would force a philosophic shift in the way Americans think about the role of government. That's the bucket of cold water that's needed.

Default has been used by many governments including state govts in the US. We're doing it anyway by debasing the currency.

BigRedChief 01-07-2013 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea (Post 9292350)
Default is an option—a wonderful one. A bucket of cold water to wake up the American ovine herd.

I think a self inflicted recession and paying billions more in debt costs is not a good idea.

BigRedChief 01-07-2013 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyonsd (Post 9291862)
If the ceiling isn't raised we won't default. We easily have enough revenue to cover our debt service.

What we won't be able to do is borrow more, which means we will be forced to cut spending.

But default isn't an option and this argument is silly and just a democrat scare tactic term.

Huh? We ran out of money on Dec. 31st. They are using accounting tricks to buy a month or two. But the clock is ticking and the Republicans trying to portray this as no big deal are way off in their analysis.

I don't think the Republicans are so stupid to push the economy into a recession.

mlyonsd 01-07-2013 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 9294080)
Huh? We ran out of money on Dec. 31st. They are using accounting tricks to buy a month or two. But the clock is ticking and the Republicans trying to portray this as no big deal are way off in their analysis.

I don't think the Republicans are so stupid to push the economy into a recession.

I'd say your original question is true, defaulting on our debt is a violation of the constitution.

Where you're wrong is if we reach the debt ceiling and it isn't raised, we won't necessarily go default. We have plenty of monthly federal revenue to pay our debts.

We won't have enough money to borrow further on things like unemployment benefits, food stamps, military spending, bridges to no where.

But we won't be in default.

It's sad you are tricked by the very people you champion.


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