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-   -   Misc Question for the pro-life crowd... (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=268776)

Direckshun 01-11-2013 03:09 PM

Question for the pro-life crowd...
 
I've been reading a lot about abortion this week, particularly a lot from the pro-life perspective about right to life and all that jazz. I've been doing a lot of reflection on the topic, so I was hoping I could get some earnest reflection back from you.

I am pro-choice, of course, but I see the logic of the pro-life argument, even as I disagree with it.

One major issue I've with the pro-life crowd, however, is that this crowd almost always tends to be particularly conservative and anti-government. Which, to my mind, creates a practical issue with your position.

Now, I know what you're thinking, and no, I'm not going where you think -- I don't like argument often made by pro-choicers that "conservatives are supposed to be the small government party, yet here they are supporting governmental power over every woman's medical decision" because, while I think that's a fair point, I think you could easily argue that most people have exceptions to their ideologies; that's just the way people work. It's a complex world, and exceptions reign -- if I'm a hardcore conservative, I think it's still reasonable for me to support a ban on abortion due to the intensity and importance of the issue, even if it might conflict with my otherwise stout anti-government views. So I don't adopt that argument.

Here's my big hang-up with the conservative pro-life position:

A conservative pro-lifer simultaneously believes that:

(1.) Life is sacrosanct, and must be protected and preserved, and

(2.) government should either
(a.) provide as little or minimal economic assistance and relief to the people as possible, or
(b.) not be in the business of providing economic relief and services to people at all. (This is more of a libertarian position.)
To me, this perspective says simply: every soul with a chance to be born must be born, but once you're born, you're on your own.

Most fetuses who are aborted for non-medical reasons are most likely being aborted because their potential families do not want them for personal or even economic reasons. I'm not excusing this, but it is what it is. Forcing them to be born with an abortion ban puts them in these shit situations, and it's going to lead to a greater possibility of poor education, poverty, and crime than those who are born to families that actually wanted them.

Other times, they'll be effectively orphaned as the families who don't want them leave them in the street or put them up for adoption. Some will be adopted, but adopting is an insanely hard practice (and it should be -- you don't want to risk exploitation of these children), it's expensive, and it's nowhere remotely close to the rate of the children available for adoption -- and that's right now, without an abortion ban.

There's also the education perspective, for instance. As it stands now, most conservatives would probably side with getting rid of the Department of Education and embracing fully private schools. That puts innocent children whose only crime was to come out of the wrong vagina at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to being the properly-adjusted productive soul that pro-lifers believe every soul should be.

So my question to the conservative pro-lifers among us:

Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban, are there policies that YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT to provide aid to children who have been born under the ban that otherwise wouldn't have?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful answers.

I know this is an abortion thread, but my hope is that this thread can be reflective and respectful, even as we might start to disagree.

BucEyedPea 01-11-2013 03:16 PM

Pro-life is not just a conservative pov. There's pro-life democrats, even what we consider "liberal" ones too.

redsurfer11 01-11-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9306494)
I've been reading a lot about abortion this week, particularly a lot from the pro-life perspective about right to life and all that jazz. I've been doing a lot of reflection on the topic, so I was hoping I could get some earnest reflection back from you.

I am pro-choice, of course, but I see the logic of the pro-life argument, even as I disagree with it.

One major issue I've with the pro-life crowd, however, is that this crowd almost always tends to be particularly conservative and anti-government. Which, to my mind, creates a practical issue with your position.

Now, I know what you're thinking, and no, I'm not going where you think -- I don't like argument often made by pro-choicers that "conservatives are supposed to be the small government party, yet here they are supporting governmental power over every woman's medical decision" because, while I think that's a fair point, I think you could easily argue that most people have exceptions to their ideologies; that's just the way people work. It's a complex world, and exceptions reign -- if I'm a hardcore conservative, I think it's still reasonable for me to support a ban on abortion due to the intensity and importance of the issue, even if it might conflict with my otherwise stout anti-government views. So I don't adopt that argument.

Here's my big hang-up with the conservative pro-life position:

A conservative pro-lifer simultaneously believes that:

(1.) Life is sacrosanct, and must be protected and preserved, and

(2.) government should either
(a.) provide as little or minimal economic assistance and relief to the people as possible, or
(b.) not be in the business of providing economic relief and services to people at all. (This is more of a libertarian position.)
To me, this perspective says simply: every soul with a chance to be born must be born, but once you're born, you're on your own.

Most fetuses who are aborted for non-medical reasons are most likely being aborted because their potential families do not want them for personal or even economic reasons. I'm not excusing this, but it is what it is. Forcing them to be born with an abortion ban puts them in these shit situations, and it's going to lead to a greater possibility of poor education, poverty, and crime than those who are born to families that actually wanted them.

Other times, they'll be effectively orphaned as the families who don't want them leave them in the street or put them up for adoption. Some will be adopted, but adopting is an insanely hard practice (and it should be -- you don't want to risk exploitation of these children), it's expensive, and it's nowhere remotely close to the rate of the children available for adoption -- and that's right now, without an abortion ban.

There's also the education perspective, for instance. As it stands now, most conservatives would probably side with getting rid of the Department of Education and embracing fully private schools. That puts innocent children whose only crime was to come out of the wrong vagina at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to being the properly-adjusted productive soul that pro-lifers believe every soul should be.

So my question to the conservative pro-lifers among us:

Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban, are there policies that YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT to provide aid to children who have been born under the ban that otherwise wouldn't have?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful answers.

I know this is an abortion thread, but my hope is that this thread can be reflective and respectful, even as we might start to disagree.





D-Face..... You should ponder your existence. Normal people don't sit around and think of abortion.

Frazod 01-11-2013 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsurfer11 (Post 9306539)
D-Face..... You should ponder your existence. Normal people don't sit around and think of abortion.

He just sits around thinking about things that piss people off.

Must be one of the side effects of not having a life.

Direckshun 01-11-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsurfer11 (Post 9306539)
D-Face..... You should ponder your existence. Normal people don't sit around and think of abortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9306549)
He just sits around thinking about things that piss people off.

Must be one of the side effects of not having a life.

Are either of you a conservative pro-lifer?

redsurfer11 01-11-2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9306550)
Are either of you a conservative pro-lifer?


Are you a Commie?

Direckshun 01-11-2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsurfer11 (Post 9306556)
Are you a Commie?

I'm confused as to what that has to do with the OP.

Frazod 01-11-2013 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9306550)
Are either of you a conservative pro-lifer?

I don't give a **** about abortion. You want to have one, have one. If you don't, don't. It continues to amaze me that with all the serious problems this country is facing right now that anybody gives a crap about this bullshit way or another. Same with gay marriage. Don't care about either issue, tired of hearing about both. Why can't people just mind their own goddamn business? :banghead:

Direckshun 01-11-2013 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9306564)
I don't give a **** about abortion. You want to have one, have one.

Fair enough.

Looking forward to the thoughts of some pro-life conservatives in this thread.

Frazod 01-11-2013 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9306570)
Fair enough.

Looking forward to the thoughts of some pro-life conservatives in this thread.

Yes, I'll bet you are. Especially since the subject has never come up here before.

Douche.

Chocolate Hog 01-11-2013 03:50 PM

You are making a huge leap with your argument D.

Direckshun 01-11-2013 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9306573)
Yes, I'll bet you are. Especially since the subject has never come up here before.

Abortion's discussed on the forum a lot, sure, but discussion so often boils down to the idea of preserving a woman's self-determination with her body, and a fetus' right to life.

That's a good discussion to have, but I'm focusing on just an aspect of the debate: what kind of abortion-ban society do conservative pro-lifers prefer with regard to those babies who will have been born who otherwise would not have?

Direckshun 01-11-2013 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini (Post 9306585)
You are making a huge leap with your argument D.

Hmm. How do you figure?

A Salt Weapon 01-11-2013 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod (Post 9306564)
I don't give a **** about abortion. You want to have one, have one. If you don't, don't. It continues to amaze me that with all the serious problems this country is facing right now that anybody gives a crap about this bullshit way or another. Same with gay marriage. Don't care about either issue, tired of hearing about both. Why can't people just mind their own goddamn business? :banghead:

:clap:
This is my thoughts as well.
Posted via Mobile Device

DementedLogic 01-11-2013 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9306494)
A conservative pro-lifer simultaneously believes that:

(1.) Life is sacrosanct, and must be protected and preserved, and

(2.) government should either
(a.) provide as little or minimal economic assistance and relief to the people as possible, or
(b.) not be in the business of providing economic relief and services to people at all. (This is more of a libertarian position.)
To me, this perspective says simply: every soul with a chance to be born must be born, but once you're born, you're on your own.

Conservatives typically believe that protecting people from other people is an appropriate role of government. They view the unborn as a separate human life, and therefore government has the role to protect it from the mother who may want to "murder" it.

They do not believe that protecting people from themselves is a proper role of government. Welfare is the government protecting people from themselves.

Hopefully that clears it up for you.


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