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Old 10-04-2012, 05:10 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If they're going to blame us either way, and they will with the Muslim Brotherhood running the show, wouldn't we be better off with an Egyptian govt that's going to be more favorably disposed to us?
IMO No, because the reality would be that THIS TIME we are correct and that we aren't propping up some asshole (A La Mubarrack). I don't care what they THINK....I care what is true...and the truth is Mubarrack was a Tyrant. So we absolutely CANNOT make that mistake again. So , no is the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The Egyptian military hasn't been a source of enlightenment and individual rights over the years, but if the new government ends up going to war, either overt or covert, with Israel, we may look back on the former military rulers with fondness.
Again, I will argue you are wrong. Not because I do not think that war is plausible...but simply put..because the will of the people must be heard. We will never look back on Mubarrack with fondness...but the simple truth is you can look at the Hamas Charter and see that war with Israel is inevitable as long as this charter exists. If a majority of Egyptians want war with Israel, then trying to install a puppet Tyrant is meaningless.

War sucks, but its not like a majority of the people WANT peace with Israel. A majority of the people there support Hamas and/or one of its wings (like MB). The people who want peace are the minority.

Yes this is a crappy future, but there is nothing that you or I or anyone else can really do other than try and reach out to the people with dialogue. We can't 'do' anything like military or installing our version of democracy to people who do not want it. Sorry, but the truth hurts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
What did we do to begin with? We could have reassured the military that we would continue to support them if they prevented the total takeover of the government by the MB. We could have supported Mubarack while convincing him to offer his people more of a say in their government or some degree of liberalization.

It's possible we couldn't have prevented what happened, but if we stood back and took a hands off approach instead of trying to subtly influence events toward the best possible outcome from the US point of view, our leadership failed us.
See above. I really do not think our mission is to install dictators....If they want a war, let them have it. They need to come to terms and figure out a democracy THEMSELVES.

No one can convince them that the Hamas Charter is evil and wrong, other than THEMSELVES. This must come from the inside.....of course with information and communication and dialogue.

I think a lot of what you are saying is correct , but the devil is in these details...

There really is no point to meddling very much, since no amount of meddling will change the basic facts...The Egyptian people have to reject Sharia and Hamas on their own...and their is ZERO indication they even want to do either except a minority of people who have no power.
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