[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

Talking about the big games, because I don't want to sit here and list every game he had. you said jordan averaged 33 per game. lebron averages 28 and about 1 assist more. By your logic, jordan's consistently dominant play was worth about 3 more points per game? I'm pretty sure Lebron has led his teams in points, assists, and rebounds. He averages nearly a 30 point triple double. What exactly is your definition of dominant at this point?

LeBron's series against Indiana has looked Jordan-esque. The last 2 playoffs from LeBron looked like a superstar player playing with a great supporting cast. It was a Paul Pierce or Kobe like dominance, which is not on the same level as MJ dominance. MJ's final PPG was 33. At the peak of his career it was somewhere around 35, which is outrageous for any player. He has a 50% success rate with buzzer beaters. He has a shitload of 40+ and 50+ games on his resume. And he did all this while averaging about 7 Assists, 6-7 Rebounds, and 2 Steals per game. Jordan pretty much played every series in the dominant way LeBron is playing Indiana. If he plays every series like Chicago, that's still excellent, but it's not what compares you to the greatest athlete of all time.

Did you watch the finals? If not for one boneheaded play at the end, Westbrook's 43 almost won them game 4. This is the same OKC that beat a very very similar spurs team that you just mentioned. Regardless. I'm failing to see how you're discounting Lebron's competition. Like I said, he's gone up against the best defense in the league nearly every year in the playoffs. That detroit team he dropped 48 on wasn't just a good defense, it was one of the most elite defenses in the history of the nba. As for the last two years, best defenses in the nba belonged to... chicago, indiana, boston, and philly, also known as Lebron's playoff opponents.

Yes, I did. Miami played excellent, LeBron played excellent, and his role players were unstoppable. Wade and Bosh were superb, and Mike Miller/Battier somehow got red hot. But OKC played absolutely terrible, and it wasn't all because of a suffocating defense. Harden was shooting about 25% on mostly open shots. Apart from 2 games, Westbrook was pretty terrible. The Spurs, to me, are a much better benchmark of the kind of team you want to see the Heat play.

Yes, they had handchecking in Jordan's era, but they also had nothing like the strong side shading defenses which means the whole team can focus on keeping a guy out of the paint. And yes, handchecking meant some of the stronger guys could basically guide the offensive player where they wanted them to go, but still, with how easy it was to iso, and with the rudimentary double teaming techniques, basically, if you could get by your man, the defense was toast. Those scarce "elite" defenders were nowhere near as effective as the elite team defenses currently in the NBA.

Also, of those three you mentioned, only dumars was an elite defender, russell was just an athletic guy comparable to a richard jefferson, and wilkins was just an unfortunate nickname. Remember who was guarding Jordan during "the shot?" Freak athlete, defensive stalwart, Craig ****ing Ehlo. With a few exceptions, the league was nowhere near as athletic then as it is now.

Now you're starting to get ridiculous. 1) Ehlo was a solid defender and "the shot' was a tremendous offensive play. It had little to do with poor defense; 2) hand-checking rules made it very difficult to play Guard in the same way it made it harder to play receiver with tighter pass interference rules; 3) you are completely misinformed if you're going to make the laughable claim that defenses are better today than they were back then. Back then, you had great team defenses because most coaches valued players who could play at least a little defense. The 80's was an elite era for defensive guards. In the 90's, you had absolutely elite defenders guarding Jordan in almost every playoff series. YOu had either John Starks or Gerald Wilkins. Dan Majerle. Clyde Drexler. Gary Payton / Nate McMillan. Joe Dumars. I'm sorry, but most of these guys run circles around Paul George or Jimmy Butler, especially with handchecking rules in place; 4) Bryon Russell was an excellent defender and he got beat, as most players did, on a very well defended play where Jordan made a shot that was just unguardable; 5) Jordan played in one of the most balanced eras in the NBA and a stacked Eastern Conference. Every year, he played the Pat Riley Knicks, the Lenny Wilkens Cavs, the Bad Boy Pistons, and in the finals he squared off against a stacked Jazz team, a stacked Suns team, and the Magic-led Lakers.

And I'm not saying this to denigrate what Jordan did, I'm just saying Lebron's clearly in the conversation in a way that nobody else in our generation has been before.

LeBron is the best of our generation. I've already said that. But he's got a long, long way to be MJ and again, he has to play every series like he has Indiana. It's even more crazy to think about what Jordan could have accomplished if he went straight to the NBA and didn't try out baseball. He could have won 8 in a row.