Thread: U.S. Issues The country is ****ed
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Old 06-16-2014, 09:25 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
Generally doing away with gender-based discrimination - the idea that women belong in the kitchen, Old Boys' Club thinking at work, political inequality, outright violence against women, and questioning pop-culture mores like why so few movies feature women in lead roles. That kind of thing.

It's generally just about treating women with, well, equality. It's generally not that complicated a thing, but it sure becomes so - like, for example, when the Take-It-Too-Far crowd starts spouting off on the Internet, and their bizarre rants get presented as if they're the norm.
You seem to want to water "feminism" down to the extent that even most conservatives would qualify as feminists. IMO, that's as wrong as limiting it to the man-hating fringe.

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Camille Paglia and Christina Sommers on PBS show questioning whether feminism has gone too far:

Christina Sommers, what has feminism become?

MS. SOMMERS: The orthodox feminists are so carried away with victimology, with a rhetoric of male-bashing that it's full of female chauvinists, if you will. Also, women are quite eager to censor, to silence. And what concerns me most as a philosopher is it's become very anti-intellectual, and I think it poses a serious risk to young women in the universities. Women's studies classes are increasingly a kind of initiation into the most radical wing, the most intolerant wing, of the feminist movement. And I consider myself a whistle-blower. I'm from inside the campus. I teach philosophy. I've seen what's been going on.

MR. WATTENBERG: Camille, what has feminism become?

MS. PAGLIA: Well, I have been an ardent feminist since the rebirth of the current feminist movement. I'm on the record as being -- as rebelling against my gender-role, as being an open lesbian and so on. In the early 1960s I was researching Amelia Earhart, who for me symbolized the great period of feminism of the '20s and '30s just after women won the right to vote. When this phase of feminism kicked back in the late '60s, it was very positive at first. Women drew the line against men and demanded equal rights. I am an equal opportunity feminist. But very soon it degenerated into a kind of totalitarian 'group think' that we are only now rectifying 20 years later.

MR. WATTENBERG: Is this the distinction between equity feminism and gender feminism? Is that what we're talking about?

MS. SOMMERS: That's right. Yes.

MR. WATTENBERG: Could you sort of explain that so that we get our terms right?

MS. SOMMERS: An equity feminist -- and Camille and I both are equity feminists --is you want for women what you want for everyone: fair treatment, no discrimination. A gender feminist, on the other hand, is someone like the current leaders in the feminist movement: Patricia Ireland and Gloria Steinem and Susan Faludi and Eleanor Smeal. They believe that women are trapped in what they call a sex-gender system, a patriarchal hegemony; that contemporary American women are in the thrall to men, to male culture. And it's so silly. It has no basis in American reality. No women have ever had more opportunities, more freedom, and more equality than contemporary American women. And at that moment the movement becomes more bitter and more angry. Why are they so angry?

MS. PAGLIA: Mmm-hmm. (In agreement.) This is correct. In otherwords, I think that the current feminist movement has taken credit for a lot of the enormous changes in women's lives that my generation of the '60s wrought. There were women in the mid '60s when I was in college who did not go on to become feminists. They were baudy and feisty and robust. Barbra Streisand is a kind of example of a kind of pre-feminist woman that changed the modern world and so on.

Now, I think that again what we need to do now is to get rid ofthe totalitarians, get rid of the Kremlin mentality --
So it sounds to me like you're using "feminist" to mean more of what Sommers and Paglia call "equity feminists" while GoChiefs is talking more about what they call "gender feminists". I don't think GoChiefs characterizations are as fringe as you make them out to be, but I think you're right that they don't represent mainstream thinking of American women in general (and non-chauvinist men) either.

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