Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho
I know it's a different era, but you have to look at guys like Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson to come close to his durability and dominance. It's a good argument.
But I always thought it was pretty clear Clemens started juicing when he got to Toronto. His career had started trending down in Boston once he hit age 30. His last 4 years there, Clemens was:
745 IP
3.63 ERA
717 K
1.29 WHIP
304 BB
40-39 record
Translates to a yearly average of:
186 1/3 IP
ERA/WHIP the same
76 BB
180 K
10-10 record
I think if the Rocket doesn't start juicing, his 30s continue to be a slide into mediocrity. He still is probably hall-worthy, but not 'best all time' worthy.
I'd say the same about Bonds. He was on track to be one of the top 25 position players of all time, BEFORE the roids. I won't crown him 'best ever,' but he still was hall-worthy.
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You might be right that they wouldn't be held in such high regard if they never turned to PEDs, but they did. And in doing so, they were by far the best players in an era in which their peers were doing the same thing. That does count for something.
It's also really hard to say these things definitively about their careers when you don't really know when they started using or what exactly the effect of the PEDs on their numbers was. It wouldn't surprise me at all, for example, if Clemens started using PEDs before his Toronto days but improved his level for some other reason (it's not like pitchers haven't improved in their 30s before, heck look at another all-time SP great in RJ whose best years all came in his mid to late 30s). There are just a lot of questions and guesswork when you get into this stuff that can't be fully answered and never will be.