How many times has the #1 offense in the league not made the playoffs?

[FringeNC]

I bet it isn't very often, if ever. And last year, the D was so bad, we couldn't even finish .500.

Many of you guys do no understand the monumental failure of Gun's 2nd time around here. We did not ask him to give us a great D. All we asked was a good enough D to allow our O to take control of games. He failed completely.

I bet there has never in the history been a team that has led the league in offense two years in a row, and not made the playoffs either year. Not only has Gun been bad, he has set historical precedent. He even outdid Robinson. Robinson's 2002 year was the only year we had this type of O and didn't make the playoffs.

And the amazing thing about it? Most Chiefs' fans want him retained, and the GM will probably do it. No wonder this team has not been to the SB in ages...

[ChiefFripp]

it took awhile for our offense to get its act together and I believe that cost us a couple of games. Our defense actually seemed really decent the first few games if I remember correctly. We just need the offense and defense to gel at the same time for once.

[FringeNC]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

My question to you is how can you blame Gun for the talent or lack thereof, that is on the field?

Because in the end that's what you are doing.

I give Carl his fair share of blame in acquiring these players. I just don't want Robinson or Gun as my D-C, despite past successes. Both seem to require multiple all-Pros to be effective.

I reallly don't think Gregg Williams has all that much to work with in Washington.

How much money did Gun spend in the offseason trying to upgrade? Shouldn't it have gotten us more than the debacles in Dallas and NY? As I said, I do not think the rest of the league will look favorably upon Gun's effort here. I think it has been bad enough that he will never be a DC again. We will see.

[tk13]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

You're right he did have a nice run and Denver and no that doesn't make him a great coordintor, it does however prove my point.

What good is having 70 INT's a season, 3000 fumble recoveries and still be 29th in yards allowed?

And if you look up at the stats I posted the Yards per play only Gun's D's only averaged maybe giving up a little over a yard more per play.

In Denver he had talent, he did well. In KC he didn't have talent, he did Poor.

1995-1998 Gun had talent, he did well. 2004-2005 He didn't have talent, he did poor.

Belichek in Cleveland, Poor. Belichek in N.E. Genius.

It's a pattern, do you see it? When any coach is surrounded by talent they will excel.

Take Guns talent away he's just a good Defensive minded guy with nothing to work with. Take G-Rob's talent away, same thing.

My question to you is how can you blame Gun for the talent or lack thereof, that is on the field?

Because in the end that's what you are doing.

Belichick actually had the #1 ranked defense in his 2nd to last year in Cleveland. Then the next year they announced the move to Baltimore and it all fell apart.

And you can blame Gun for the talent on the defense because Carl and DV let him hand pick it. They let him make a list of the players he wanted... and Carl actually went out and got them signed. That's actually quite an accomplishment by Carl, it's not a video game out there, to actually sign all your top FA targets is pretty good.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by tk13

You read too quickly. That "Bears" is the California Golden Bears. He didn't come into the NFL until the early 80's as a D-line coach for the Colts. And he was demoted from DC to D-line coach with the Raiders in 94...

By golly, you're right.

Take those two years out and look at what's left...

Ouch.

[listopencil]

When you guys got Gunther to replace Robinson I said that it would be like when Rhodes replaced Robinson for us. The defense looks better but fails when you need a timely stop. It almost seems like an inevitable step when going from shitty to decent. We offed Rhodes because of it, you guys might end up losing Gunther for the same reason.

[Calcountry]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

You're right he did have a nice run and Denver and no that doesn't make him a great coordintor, it does however prove my point.

What good is having 70 INT's a season, 3000 fumble recoveries and still be 29th in yards allowed?

And if you look up at the stats I posted the Yards per play only Gun's D's only averaged maybe giving up a little over a yard more per play.

In Denver he had talent, he did well. In KC he didn't have talent, he did Poor.

1995-1998 Gun had talent, he did well. 2004-2005 He didn't have talent, he did poor.

Belichek in Cleveland, Poor. Belichek in N.E. Genius.

It's a pattern, do you see it? When any coach is surrounded by talent they will excel.

Take Guns talent away he's just a good Defensive minded guy with nothing to work with. Take G-Rob's talent away, same thing.

My question to you is how can you blame Gun for the talent or lack thereof, that is on the field?

Because in the end that's what you are doing.

Usinig your logic, how could you blame any coach for their team sucking? The difference between good coaches and bad, are how much they get out of their players.

[shaneo69]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

Whoever started this thread is a moron.

Even with the offense being #1 they lost their share of games this year just like the D. We were 10-6. I don't blame the players at all, I dont blame the O or the D, I blame poor coaching at inopportune times.

If at the beginning of the year someone said we would finish 10-6 all of you would have been happy....but because finishing 10-6 didn't get us into the postseason everyone is sour grapes.

Okay, there should be a rule against adopting other people's old avatars, because I was thinking this was htismaqe's post, and I thought I had somehow wondered into another dimension.

[shaneo69]

Originally Posted by FringeNC

Yeah, it took Lovie Smith years to turn around the Rams, didn't it?

You forgot to mention that Martz went out and got him SEVEN new defensive starters after the 2000 Peter Guinta disaster.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by FringeNC

The two most relevant years are 2003 - 2004. Nothing changed except coordinators....

...And scheme. You act like Gun stepped into the job and nothing changed except the results. The reality is, he implemented a new scheme, and the players didn't pick it up very well the first year. Clearly they improved in the second year. Now if you want to use htis' arguement that they will regress this year, that's one thing. But to say that Gun did worse with the same players as GRob is ignoring a key part of the puzzle.

[FringeNC]

Originally Posted by jspchief

...And scheme. You act like Gun stepped into the job and nothing changed except the results. The reality is, he implemented a new scheme, and the players didn't pick it up very well the first year. Clearly they improved in the second year. Now if you want to use htis' arguement that they will regress this year, that's one thing. But to say that Gun did worse with the same players as GRob is ignoring a key part of the puzzle.

All the talk of mutiple years needed to pick up a scheme is pure myth. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a new DC's best year was his first. Other teams do not know the various schemes and tendencies, and don't have tons of film to study.

During his first go-round here, Gunther's best year was his first year. It didn't take him years to get his scheme implemented. Robinson's best year was his first. It'd be interesting to look at large samples, but I am confident in the result that the general rule would be that it didn't take years to implement a scheme.

Yet another bogus excuse for Gunther's failure.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by FringeNC

During his first go-round here, Gunther's best year was his first year. It didn't take him years to get his scheme implemented.

Uhh, during Gun's first go round, he took over a top ten defense with a potential HoF pass rushing LB. Hardly a valid comparison.

Did Ron Rivera turn the Bears around in his first year?

[Hydrae]

Comparing Robinson's D of 2003 to Gunther's D of 2004 is bogus IMO. Robinson had been here 3 years and had people knowing and understanding what he expected of them and what they could expect of those playing around them. There is no way to expect someone with completely different schemes to just walk in the door and get people on the same page of the hymnal. Heck, it was a totally different hymnal.

You will also note that the D did improve from 2004 to 2005. Some people want to say it was due to improvements in personnel and they would be somewhat right. But of those we added, how many of them are the fans happy with now? Bell failed miserably to live up to his hype and Knight take a week to go 40 yards.

I have no problem giving Gun one more year. If the defense is not noticably better than 2003, run him out of town on a rail again. But if this defense is top 10 in scoring this next season, I expect the crow population in KC to drop to an all time low due to how many are being eaten.