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Old 09-06-2012, 07:29 PM   Topic Starter
RINGLEADER RINGLEADER is offline
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How Do You Grow the Economy From the Middle Out

I keep hearing this line from the Dems. How, precisely, do you grow the economy "from the middle out?"
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #2
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Without a strong middle class its impossible to have a strong America.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:33 PM   #3
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Without a strong middle class its impossible to have a strong America.
Good job of saying something without saying anything.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:52 PM   #4
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Without a strong middle class its impossible to have a strong America.
And the middle class grew, not from the govt but beginning in the Industrial Revolution through markets and mechanization.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:35 AM   #5
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Without a strong middle class its impossible to have a strong America.

I agree and I think anyone with a brain would a agree that a strong middle class is important and is the backbone of the country's economy.

The area where left and right disagree on is how to get there. In the real world, the saying "it takes money to make money" is very true. If I had $50k to speculate with on land or auction items, I know I could make purchases on cheap items and flip them for profit. Without the cash to do so, you can't.

Starting a business is expensive. Even small business that doesn't require great inventories or large store fronts or office space. Equipment, computers, software, general insurance, professional liability insurance, licenses, permits, supplies, inventory, legal fees, corporate filing fees, CPA, starting and operating capital and on and on.

It's very much possible to start a new business and create jobs for a middle class person but it's hard. You have to spend years collecting savings, get collateral on your own or via family or some type of angel investor. You get that done and you start the process of fighting your way through government regulations and environmental testing and permits and on and on....all before you even get into employee issues, workforce development, figuring out the taxes and forms and reports.

I've done it successfully, and this year shut down another attempt after a year of work. It failed not because of the effort of myself or partners, but very specifically because of government regulation, red tape and nonsense. Government policy and requirements absolutely killed that opportunity and at least 3 jobs.

The Republican strategy makes sense to me more than the Dem for reasons directly relating to what I have shared above. Reducing government red tape, environmental regulations and other ignorant restrictions are important. Lowering taxes on businesses and payroll taxes make it possible to stay afloat during the vital first 2 years of a business. Less taxes, less expenses fighting through government requirements can make or break creation of a new job.

Making it easier for existing business to expand for corporations to grow and for people with the financial means to either create business or spent that money as an investor in a new company in my opinion are the best way to create jobs.

I'm not a 1%, I'm not wealthy but I am a small business owner who is absolutely against the democratic talking points which have zero actual strategy or impact on new business development.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:21 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
The Republican strategy makes sense to me more than the Dem for reasons directly relating to what I have shared above. Reducing government red tape, environmental regulations and other ignorant restrictions are important. Lowering taxes on businesses and payroll taxes make it possible to stay afloat during the vital first 2 years of a business. Less taxes, less expenses fighting through government requirements can make or break creation of a new job.

Making it easier for existing business to expand for corporations to grow and for people with the financial means to either create business or spent that money as an investor in a new company in my opinion are the best way to create jobs.

I'm not a 1%, I'm not wealthy but I am a small business owner who is absolutely against the democratic talking points which have zero actual strategy or impact on new business development.
I'm all for lowering taxes on the middle class, lowering them for small business owners. Not for the rich. And the definition of a "small buiness owner" is BS. Billionaires, Billion $ companies. Thats where the seperation occurs btween what is a small business owner and who is not. We define it better, who gets those tax breaks, i could go along.

Obama put forth a huge tax cut for businesses this summer, why didnt the Republicans vote for it?

I think your struggle is what every american should support. A guy has an idea, puts his heart and soul into it, hires a few people etc. Thats exactly how we build the middle class and get out of this mess.

I'm also against stupid ass regulations. I have to deal with that stupidity daily. But, we almost had another depression because we allowed businesses to do whatever they wanted. Almost total deregulation caused so much harm to this country. Wheres that line when we have trip wires in place so that businesses dont cause us all to suffer a depression?
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I'm all for lowering taxes on the middle class, lowering them for small business owners. Not for the rich. And the definition of a "small buiness owner" is BS. Billionaires, Billion $ companies. Thats where the seperation occurs btween what is a small business owner and who is not. We define it better, who gets those tax breaks, i could go along.

Obama put forth a huge tax cut for businesses this summer, why didnt the Republicans vote for it?

I think your struggle is what every american should support. A guy has an idea, puts his heart and soul into it, hires a few people etc. Thats exactly how we build the middle class and get out of this mess.

I'm also against stupid ass regulations. I have to deal with that stupidity daily. But, we almost had another depression because we allowed businesses to do whatever they wanted. Almost total deregulation caused so much harm to this country. Wheres that line when we have trip wires in place so that businesses dont cause us all to suffer a depression?
We haven't come close to "almost total deregulation" during your lifetime. What you're complaining about, even if you don't realize it, is the misregulation and unintended consequence of government action. This utopia that you envision where government keeps all the good regulations and discards the bad just doesn't exist.
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:42 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I'm all for lowering taxes on the middle class, lowering them for small business owners. Not for the rich. And the definition of a "small buiness owner" is BS. Billionaires, Billion $ companies. Thats where the seperation occurs btween what is a small business owner and who is not. We define it better, who gets those tax breaks, i could go along.

Obama put forth a huge tax cut for businesses this summer, why didnt the Republicans vote for it?

I think your struggle is what every american should support. A guy has an idea, puts his heart and soul into it, hires a few people etc. Thats exactly how we build the middle class and get out of this mess.

Well, under the collectivist system That the Obama administration has been incrementally imposing, there will be no middle class — just government-dependent peasants and their wise, all-powerful rulers.

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Old 09-06-2012, 07:36 PM   #9
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Would jobs help? Maybe giving employers a reason to expand rather than a threat of confiscation would hel
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:39 PM   #10
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I keep hearing this line from the Dems. How, precisely, do you grow the economy "from the middle out?"
You have Obama, Clinton, and Biden say it and then hope money monkeys fly out of your butt.

All while depressing our economy even further by putting policies into place that make energy more expensive.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:44 PM   #11
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The ONLY way I can think of is with government jobs. Otherwise it always has to start top-down.

Well, I guess you could call SMALL small businesses as "middle." But I consider ANY business owner a "top" regardless of size or income.

Might help if they DEFINED the middle first.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:50 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
The ONLY way I can think of is with government jobs. Otherwise it always has to start top-down.

Well, I guess you could call SMALL small businesses as "middle." But I consider ANY business owner a "top" regardless of size or income.

Might help if they DEFINED the middle first.
Well, I could sort of see how you can do a short-term stimulus from the middle out with money, but I still don't understand where that money that is being passed out is supposed to come from or how passing the money out creates future members of the middle class.

The biggest problem that the left has with this kind of talk is that I can't find the practical economic reasoning that shows that it is sustainable or works? I'd really like to hear the explanation from those that support Obama since this, coupled with "fairness" seem to be the motivating factors that drive his economic message.

I just don't see how you sustain an economy with this approach. Doing things that aren't as efficient or rewarding in the name of morality is stupid when you have a 16 trillion dollar axe hanging over your head.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by RINGLEADER View Post
Well, I could sort of see how you can do a short-term stimulus from the middle out with money, but I still don't understand where that money that is being passed out is supposed to come from or how passing the money out creates future members of the middle class.

The biggest problem that the left has with this kind of talk is that I can't find the practical economic reasoning that shows that it is sustainable or works? I'd really like to hear the explanation from those that support Obama since this, coupled with "fairness" seem to be the motivating factors that drive his economic message.

I just don't see how you sustain an economy with this approach. Doing things that aren't as efficient or rewarding in the name of morality is stupid when you have a 16 trillion dollar axe hanging over your head.
Growing from the middle out is all rhetorical nonsense. It can't be done unless of course we get what Obama wants which is a huge Govt. with more and more people working for the Govt. Then you can grow it for awhile until the private sector cannot support the model any longer and it collapses on itself.

No, the ONLY true way to build a healthy middle class is to grow businesses that are sized from less than ten to about 2000 employees. These businesses are the backbone of America. Obama likes to talk about building things in the USA. I can tell you that if the Govt. gave tax breaks for manufacturers to put million dollar milling and boring type of equipment in the USA then they would. Right now it's better/cheaper to Mfg. in China with that machine and then box up the product and ship it back to the USA to get put together into a final product.

There's a lot that could be done to incentify manufacturers to spend on cap ex. in the US and in turn that has a multiplying effect where companies buy from each other (which creates jobs) and they in turn build things in the US and that grows these companies. (Which creates still more jobs)

We also need a healthy retail consumer but they need a job first. Obama is hostile towards the private sector. He wants to raise taxes on Companies whose owners make $250,000 because they have organized their companies in a way that has them run their profits through their personal taxes. This will KILL job growth.

What I think needs to be done is the following;

1) Cut corporate tax rates to bring mfg. jobs back into the USA. Make it cheaper to Mfg. in the USA and jobs will be created

2) Eliminate loops holes for the truly rich (In my mind those are take home pay people who make $1Million or more in salary. We could argue that maybe it's $750,000 ... Tax their take home NOT the revenue from their companies.

NOTE: Corn should be going into our food supply not our gas tank. You can only grow so much of it. Either scale it back, reduce or eliminate the subsidy and get it back into the food supply to lower the costs of everything from Ketchup to Steak.

3) Make everyone pay some federal tax. Bush made a huge mistake letting nearly 1/2 of the population pay nothing. Even if it's a ham sandwich everyone should have skin in the game.

4) Incentify mega corporations to grow by letting them drill for energy in the USA. I'm talking Oil, Nat.Gas, Coal, Nuclear and Wind/Solar. Then tax their profits a bit higher. They will make more money but the risk will be worth it for them and they will grow profits and pay more to the treasury. Gas prices will go down which in turn will lower food prices.

4) CUT the size of the Federal Govt. The Feds are bloated. We are running Trillion dollar deficits. This includes a modest cut to the military. I SAID MODEST.

5) Re-organize social entitlements going forward. We've got to re-structure the safety net without destroying it for current older people but take into consideration the fact that younger people will live longer and will be healthier due to advancements in medicine. Like Ryan says if your less than 55 it will change, over? then don't worry your set.

6) Re-structure, replace Obamacare so that it creates competition and responsibility with the provider and the consumer. Open it up. I'm not an expert but we have to get to the point where we shop medical care at least as well as we do a new car. Keep some elements of Obamacare in place, pre-existing conditions is one. Eliminate others.. No reason a healthy 26 year old man or woman needs to be on mommy and daddy's insurance. That's crap, get a job and get you're own insurance. Create a catastrophic coverage safety net for the suddenly seriously ill so caps don't limit out and crush the savings of hard working people. If your kid gets sick and needs $2M worth or medical care you shouldn't go bankrupt trying to keep him alive because you get capped out. That's a moral imperative and we should all rally around that.

There's more but this is a good start and this is what I would expect Romney/Ryan to do based on their speeches and background.

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Old 09-07-2012, 12:57 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ChiefaRoo View Post
Growing from the middle out is all rhetorical nonsense. It can't be done unless of course we get what Obama wants which is a huge Govt. with more and more people working for the Govt. Then you can grow it for awhile until the private sector cannot support the model any longer and it collapses on itself.

No, the ONLY true way to build a healthy middle class is to grow businesses that are sized from less than ten to about 2000 employees. These businesses are the backbone of America. Obama likes to talk about building things in the USA. I can tell you that if the Govt. gave tax breaks for manufacturers to put million dollar milling and boring type of equipment in the USA then they would. Right now it's better/cheaper to Mfg. in China with that machine and then box up the product and ship it back to the USA to get put together into a final product.

There's a lot that could be done to incentify manufacturers to spend on cap ex. in the US and in turn that has a multiplying effect where companies buy from each other (which creates jobs) and they in turn build things in the US and that grows these companies. (Which creates still more jobs)

We also need a healthy retail consumer but they need a job first. Obama is hostile towards the private sector. He wants to raise taxes on Companies whose owners make $250,000 because they have organized their companies in a way that has them run their profits through their personal taxes. This will KILL job growth.

What I think needs to be done is the following;

1) Cut corporate tax rates to bring mfg. jobs back into the USA. Make it cheaper to Mfg. in the USA and jobs will be created

2) Eliminate loops holes for the truly rich (In my mind those are take home pay people who make $1Million or more in salary. We could argue that maybe it's $750,000 ... Tax their take home NOT the revenue from their companies.

NOTE: Corn should be going into our food supply not our gas tank. You can only grow so much of it. Either scale it back, reduce or eliminate the subsidy and get it back into the food supply to lower the costs of everything from Ketchup to Steak.

3) Make everyone pay some federal tax. Bush made a huge mistake letting nearly 1/2 of the population pay nothing. Even if it's a ham sandwich everyone should have skin in the game.

4) Incentify mega corporations to grow by letting them drill for energy in the USA. I'm talking Oil, Nat.Gas, Coal, Nuclear and Wind/Solar. Then tax their profits a bit higher. They will make more money but the risk will be worth it for them and they will grow profits and pay more to the treasury. Gas prices will go down which in turn will lower food prices.

4) CUT the size of the Federal Govt. The Feds are bloated. We are running Trillion dollar deficits. This includes a modest cut to the military. I SAID MODEST.

5) Re-organize social entitlements going forward. We've got to re-structure the safety net without destroying it for current older people but take into consideration the fact that younger people will live longer and will be healthier due to advancements in medicine. Like Ryan says if your less than 55 it will change, over? then don't worry your set.

6) Re-structure, replace Obamacare so that it creates competition and responsibility with the provider and the consumer. Open it up. I'm not an expert but we have to get to the point where we shop medical care at least as well as we do a new car. Keep some elements of Obamacare in place, pre-existing conditions is one. Eliminate others.. No reason a healthy 26 year old man or woman needs to be on mommy and daddy's insurance. That's crap, get a job and get you're own insurance. Create a catastrophic coverage safety net for the suddenly seriously ill so caps don't limit out and crush the savings of hard working people. If your kid gets sick and needs $2M worth or medical care you shouldn't go bankrupt trying to keep him alive because you get capped out. That's a moral imperative and we should all rally around that.

There's more but this is a good start and this is what I would expect Romney/Ryan to do based on their speeches and background.
I endorse this post.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:51 PM   #15
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The ONLY way I can think of is with government jobs. Otherwise it always has to start top-down.

Well, I guess you could call SMALL small businesses as "middle." But I consider ANY business owner a "top" regardless of size or income.

Might help if they DEFINED the middle first.
At first I thought you meant from the top of the govt down based on those first two lines.
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