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View Poll Results: I'm socially ________ and fiscally ________. (fill in the blanks)
I'm socially LIBERAL and fiscally CONSERVATIVE 23 57.50%
I'm socially LIBERAL and fiscally LIBERAL 4 10.00%
I'm socially CONSERVATIVE and fiscally CONSERVATIVE 11 27.50%
I'm socially CONSERVATIVE and fiscally LIBERAL 1 2.50%
I don't know what I am. I'll let Gaz decide. 1 2.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-28-2013, 11:31 AM   Topic Starter
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I'm socially ________ and fiscally ________. (fill in the blanks)

We've all heard others describe themselves as socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Most of us have described ourselves that way at some point. I've done it before, but I've started avoiding that phrase because I think it means radically different things to different people.

For example, in petez28's recent thread (So, you say you aren't just a party line type of person?), here's a list of people who embrace the description (so far):

Rain Man
Dave Lane
Mr. Flopnuts
chiefzilla1501
crispystl420
AustinChief
FishingRod
Amnorix

That's a pretty varied group of ideologies. So, vote in the poll and let's find the socially conservative, fiscally liberal people.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:36 AM   #2
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Here's a Jonah Goldberg column on the subject that might apply to some of you:
Wake Up, Socially Liberal Fiscal Conservatives
The GOP isn’t the political party in debt denial.
By Jonah Goldberg

Dear Socially Liberal Fiscal-Conservative Friend,

That’s pretty toothy, so I’m going to call you “Bob.”

But whatever specific name you go by, Bob, you know who you are. You’re the sort of person who says to his conservative friends or co-workers something like, “I would totally vote for Republicans if they could just give up on these crazy social issues.”

When you explain your votes for Barack Obama, you talk about how Republicans used to be much more moderate and focused on important things such as low taxes, fiscal discipline, and balanced budgets.
When Colin Powell was on Meet the Press the other day, you nodded along as he lamented how the GOP has lost its way since the days when it was all about fiscal responsibility.

And, Bob, you think Republicans are acting crazy-pants on the debt ceiling. You don’t really follow all of the details, but you can just tell that the GOP is being “extreme,” thanks to those wacky tea partiers.

So, Bob, as a “fiscal conservative,” what was so outrageous about trying to cut pork — Fisheries in Alaska! Massive subsidies for Amtrak! — from the Sandy disaster-relief bill? What was so nuts about looking for offsets to pay for it?

Bob, I’m going to be straight with you. I never had much respect for your political acumen before, but you’re a sucker.

You’re still spouting this nonsense about being fiscally conservative while insisting that the GOP is the problem. You buy into the media’s anti-Republican hysteria no matter what the facts are. Heck, you even believe it when Obama suggests he’s like an Eisenhower Republican.

Well, let’s talk about Eisenhower, your kind of Republican. Did you know that in his famous farewell address he warned about the debt? “We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage,” he said. “We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.”

Bob, we are that insolvent phantom, you feckless, gormless clod. The year Eisenhower delivered that speech, U.S. debt was roughly half our GDP. But that was when we were still paying off WWII (not to mention things like the Marshall Plan), and the defense budget constituted more than half the U.S. budget (today it’s a fifth and falling). Now, the debt is bigger than our GDP. Gross Domestic Product is barely $15 trillion. The national debt is over $16 trillion and climbing — fast. The country isn’t going broke, Bob, it is broke.

When George W. Bush added nearly $5 trillion in national debt in two terms you were scandalized. When Obama added more than that in one term, you yawned. When, in 2006, then-senator Obama condemned Bush’s failure of leadership and vowed to vote against raising the debt ceiling, you thought him a statesman. Obama, who wants to borrow trillions more, now admits that was purely a “political vote.”

Yet when Republicans actually have the courage of Obama’s own convictions, you condemn them.

You nodded sagely when Obama said we needed a “balanced approach” to cut the deficit. He said he couldn’t rein in entitlements without also raising taxes on “millionaires and billionaires.” Well, he won that fight. We raised taxes on millionaires and billionaires exactly as much as he wanted. We also raised the payroll tax on everyone.

Obama’s response to getting the tax hikes he wanted? He says we still need a “balanced approach” — i.e., even more tax hikes.

Anyone who calls himself a fiscal conservative understands we have a spending problem. Do the math. A two-earner couple who retired in 2011 after making $89,000 per year will have paid about $114,000 into Medicare over their lifetimes but will receive $355,000. When will it dawn on you that Obama doesn’t think we have a spending problem? I ask because when he said “we don’t have a spending problem,” it seemed to have no effect on you.

And yet you still think Paul Ryan’s budget was “extreme.” Do you know when it balanced the budget? 2040. What’s a non-extreme date to balance the budget, Bob? 2113?

Look, Bob, I don’t want to go spelunking in that cranium of yours. I don’t know why you think you’re a fiscal conservative. The simple fact is, you’re not. The green-eye-shaded Republicans you claim to miss would be scandalized by the mess we’re in, largely thanks to voters like you, Bob. Eisenhower would take a flamethrower to today’s Washington.

I don’t expect you to vote Republican, never mind admit you’re simply a liberal. But please stop preening about your fiscal conservatism, particularly as you condemn the GOP for not being fiscal conservatives, even when they are the only fiscal conservatives in town.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:56 AM   #3
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The term socially liberal is an oxymoron. Socially liberal means you believe in taking the conservative approach to social issues. That would make you socially conservative, which actually means the exact opposite. It exposes the blatant hypocrisy of traditional conservatives and liberals.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:36 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
The term socially liberal is an oxymoron. Socially liberal means you believe in taking the conservative approach to social issues. That would make you socially conservative, which actually means the exact opposite. It exposes the blatant hypocrisy of traditional conservatives and liberals.
Demented indeed.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Here's a Jonah Goldberg column on the subject that might apply to some of you:
The article doesn't fit me, FWIW, because the following aren't true (for me at least).

Quote:
And, Bob, you think Republicans are acting crazy-pants on the debt ceiling. You don’t really follow all of the details, but you can just tell that the GOP is being “extreme,” thanks to those wacky tea partiers.
The tea party is whacky, I'll admit that.

Quote:
So, Bob, as a “fiscal conservative,” what was so outrageous about trying to cut pork — Fisheries in Alaska! Massive subsidies for Amtrak! — from the Sandy disaster-relief bill? What was so nuts about looking for offsets to pay for it?
I would agree with cutting those items. Amtrak I would need to examine, but we need to trim pretty much everywhere.

I would honestly agree to a -- pick a percentage -- across the board cut right now. 10% on EVERYTHING, starting tomorrow. That's not a good way to govern, and I don't want to double dip, but that's how strongly I feel about cutting.

Quote:
You’re still spouting this nonsense about being fiscally conservative while insisting that the GOP is the problem. You buy into the media’s anti-Republican hysteria no matter what the facts are. Heck, you even believe it when Obama suggests he’s like an Eisenhower Republican.
errr...no, Obama is not an Eisenhower Republican.

Quote:
Bob, we are that insolvent phantom, you feckless, gormless clod. The year Eisenhower delivered that speech, U.S. debt was roughly half our GDP. But that was when we were still paying off WWII (not to mention things like the Marshall Plan), and the defense budget constituted more than half the U.S. budget (today it’s a fifth and falling). Now, the debt is bigger than our GDP. Gross Domestic Product is barely $15 trillion. The national debt is over $16 trillion and climbing — fast. The country isn’t going broke, Bob, it is broke.
Actually, it's not broke, but it's rapidly heading that way. Very rapidly.

Quote:
When George W. Bush added nearly $5 trillion in national debt in two terms you were scandalized. When Obama added more than that in one term, you yawned. When, in 2006, then-senator Obama condemned Bush’s failure of leadership and vowed to vote against raising the debt ceiling, you thought him a statesman. Obama, who wants to borrow trillions more, now admits that was purely a “political vote.”
I haven't yawned, though I do acknowledge the difference in circumstances when Obama came into office, and the classical economic theory that you don't want to go into frugality mode while heading into a recession. Many European countries have introduced austerity, and now are thoroughly rethinking that because it has tanked their economy.

That said, there should be a very define and specific plan to reduce spending, raise taxes, and head back to fiscal solvency. Right now we're a runaway freight train heading for the cliff.

Quote:
Yet when Republicans actually have the courage of Obama’s own convictions, you condemn them.
Not really. Republicans cherry pick what they want to attack, want to ignore the other side of the fiscal coin (taxes) and pretend that somehow there's a plan to return to a balanced budget. Their plan is ever so slightly better than the Democrats', because they are at least acting like they want to do *something*, but it's not much of a plan to be honest.

Romney's math never added up. Never came close. You can't really balance the deficit without touching military spending or taxes.

Quote:
Anyone who calls himself a fiscal conservative understands we have a spending problem. Do the math. A two-earner couple who retired in 2011 after making $89,000 per year will have paid about $114,000 into Medicare over their lifetimes but will receive $355,000. When will it dawn on you that Obama doesn’t think we have a spending problem? I ask because when he said “we don’t have a spending problem,” it seemed to have no effect on you.
I could quibble with these numbers, but we do have a spending problem.

Quote:
Eisenhower would take a flamethrower to today’s Washington.
I wonder what Ike, he of the military-industrial-complex, would say about basically unlimited military spending that the Republicans think is an untouchable third rail. Not much.

I tend to agree Ike would take a flamethrower to Washington, but it wouldn't just be the Democrat side of the aisle he would torch...

Quote:
I don’t expect you to vote Republican, never mind admit you’re simply a liberal. But please stop preening about your fiscal conservatism, particularly as you condemn the GOP for not being fiscal conservatives, even when they are the only fiscal conservatives in town.[/indent]
I did vote Republican. Both Romney and Scott Brown.

So yeah, **** off Mr. Goldberg. Your smarmy, know-it-all, condescending article isn't accurate for me, just as it isn't accurate for many other socially liberal / fiscal conservatives who have no party of their own but are lost between two clueless parties who seem hellbent on fiscal insanity.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So yeah, **** off Mr. Goldberg. Your smarmy, know-it-all, condescending article isn't accurate for me, just as it isn't accurate for many other socially liberal / fiscal conservatives who have no party of their own but are lost between two clueless parties who seem hellbent on fiscal insanity.
I don't know. You're better than most people who have traditionally voted democrat, but you do seem to have a blind spot when it comes to taxes. Republicans aren't against addressing the revenue side of this issue, they just understand that revenues need to come from growth not from squeezing existing income even harder.

That said, I don't think Goldberg is saying that everyone who ever described themselves as socially liberal, fiscally conservative is a Bob. I think he's mainly focused on those who supported Obama or otherwise refuse to accept the need to reverse the trend of the ever expanding entitlement state.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I don't know. You're better than most people who have traditionally voted democrat, but you do seem to have a blind spot when it comes to taxes. Republicans aren't against addressing the revenue side of this issue, they just understand that revenues need to come from growth not from squeezing existing income even harder.
Dude, until the last election they all acted like Grover Norquist had their nuts in a vice and they would never vote to raise a dime on anyone under any circumstances, ever...
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:44 PM   #8
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Dude, until the last election they all acted like Grover Norquist had their nuts in a vice and they would never vote to raise a dime on anyone under any circumstances, ever...
agreed however they just voted to raise taxes yet still no "real" spending cuts only calls for more taxes from one side of the aisle
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:08 PM   #9
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I did vote Republican. Both Romney and Scott Brown.
I thought both were declared RINO's by "real" conservatives?
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:10 PM   #10
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Stop calling this person "Bob." Are Republicans too dense to realize that this person is named "Bonnie" and "Carlos"?

I voted Republican in this election cycle. But I also practically kicked my TV at the clueless lack of social awareness of the Republican party to raise issues out of shit that doesn't matter. There are enough people who are invested in social issues like women's rights, gay rights, and immigration rights to sway the balance.

But by all means... let's blame the moderates for the Republican lack of an identity. And not the Republicans who chose to piss off several factions of voters on issues they didn't even need to speak up about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Here's a Jonah Goldberg column on the subject that might apply to some of you:
Wake Up, Socially Liberal Fiscal Conservatives
The GOP isn’t the political party in debt denial.
By Jonah Goldberg

Dear Socially Liberal Fiscal-Conservative Friend,

That’s pretty toothy, so I’m going to call you “Bob.”

But whatever specific name you go by, Bob, you know who you are. You’re the sort of person who says to his conservative friends or co-workers something like, “I would totally vote for Republicans if they could just give up on these crazy social issues.”

When you explain your votes for Barack Obama, you talk about how Republicans used to be much more moderate and focused on important things such as low taxes, fiscal discipline, and balanced budgets.
When Colin Powell was on Meet the Press the other day, you nodded along as he lamented how the GOP has lost its way since the days when it was all about fiscal responsibility.

And, Bob, you think Republicans are acting crazy-pants on the debt ceiling. You don’t really follow all of the details, but you can just tell that the GOP is being “extreme,” thanks to those wacky tea partiers.

So, Bob, as a “fiscal conservative,” what was so outrageous about trying to cut pork — Fisheries in Alaska! Massive subsidies for Amtrak! — from the Sandy disaster-relief bill? What was so nuts about looking for offsets to pay for it?

Bob, I’m going to be straight with you. I never had much respect for your political acumen before, but you’re a sucker.

You’re still spouting this nonsense about being fiscally conservative while insisting that the GOP is the problem. You buy into the media’s anti-Republican hysteria no matter what the facts are. Heck, you even believe it when Obama suggests he’s like an Eisenhower Republican.

Well, let’s talk about Eisenhower, your kind of Republican. Did you know that in his famous farewell address he warned about the debt? “We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage,” he said. “We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.”

Bob, we are that insolvent phantom, you feckless, gormless clod. The year Eisenhower delivered that speech, U.S. debt was roughly half our GDP. But that was when we were still paying off WWII (not to mention things like the Marshall Plan), and the defense budget constituted more than half the U.S. budget (today it’s a fifth and falling). Now, the debt is bigger than our GDP. Gross Domestic Product is barely $15 trillion. The national debt is over $16 trillion and climbing — fast. The country isn’t going broke, Bob, it is broke.

When George W. Bush added nearly $5 trillion in national debt in two terms you were scandalized. When Obama added more than that in one term, you yawned. When, in 2006, then-senator Obama condemned Bush’s failure of leadership and vowed to vote against raising the debt ceiling, you thought him a statesman. Obama, who wants to borrow trillions more, now admits that was purely a “political vote.”

Yet when Republicans actually have the courage of Obama’s own convictions, you condemn them.

You nodded sagely when Obama said we needed a “balanced approach” to cut the deficit. He said he couldn’t rein in entitlements without also raising taxes on “millionaires and billionaires.” Well, he won that fight. We raised taxes on millionaires and billionaires exactly as much as he wanted. We also raised the payroll tax on everyone.

Obama’s response to getting the tax hikes he wanted? He says we still need a “balanced approach” — i.e., even more tax hikes.

Anyone who calls himself a fiscal conservative understands we have a spending problem. Do the math. A two-earner couple who retired in 2011 after making $89,000 per year will have paid about $114,000 into Medicare over their lifetimes but will receive $355,000. When will it dawn on you that Obama doesn’t think we have a spending problem? I ask because when he said “we don’t have a spending problem,” it seemed to have no effect on you.

And yet you still think Paul Ryan’s budget was “extreme.” Do you know when it balanced the budget? 2040. What’s a non-extreme date to balance the budget, Bob? 2113?

Look, Bob, I don’t want to go spelunking in that cranium of yours. I don’t know why you think you’re a fiscal conservative. The simple fact is, you’re not. The green-eye-shaded Republicans you claim to miss would be scandalized by the mess we’re in, largely thanks to voters like you, Bob. Eisenhower would take a flamethrower to today’s Washington.

I don’t expect you to vote Republican, never mind admit you’re simply a liberal. But please stop preening about your fiscal conservatism, particularly as you condemn the GOP for not being fiscal conservatives, even when they are the only fiscal conservatives in town.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:46 AM   #11
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None of those categories apply to me. I support federalism and feel social and morality issues are primarily with the states.
Where does that put me?

Once in the states, I would probably lean to the right but I'd be libertarian on just a few issues. This would mean I don't rely on egalitarian arguments as the left uses (cultural Marxism) but would favor an as close to neutral position for that state govt, which would mean less involvement in that area period.

So I'd be labeled a mix on social, but still lean to the right still. Pro-life, govt out of marriage to be neutral for instance.

You need to add socially moderate fiscally conservative. That would be closer to my category. 'Cept I am not really what one would consider a moderate as I am not between the two most promoted mainstream choices but more a third category.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:54 AM   #12
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None of those categories apply to me. I support federalism and feel social issues are primarily with the states.
Where does that put me?

Once in the states. I would probably lean to the right be be libertarian on just a few issues—that would mean I don't rely on egalitarian arguments as the left uses ( cultural Marxism) but would favor an as close to neutral position for that state govt, which would mean less involvement in that area period.

So I'd be labeled a mix on social, but still lean to the right.
Yeah, I don't really think they fit anyone very well.

I'm anxious to find someone who describes themselves as a fiscal liberal.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:59 AM   #13
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Yeah, I don't really think they fit anyone very well.

I'm anxious to find someone who describes themselves as a fiscal liberal.
Theoretically, couldn't somebody be all about balanced budgets, paying down the debt, and getting stuff in order yet support all kinds of social programs and taxes?

That's a realm of fiscal solvency, which is a characteristic of fiscal conservatism.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:02 PM   #14
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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I'm anxious to find someone who describes themselves as a fiscal liberal.
I don't think anyone is going to admit to that. There's some denial going on.
I mean the left can make us pay for everything with draconian taxes everywhere, coupled with lots of money printing and claim that's fiscally conservative. In a certain way, it could be I guess.

I think a clear definition of fiscally conservative should be spending beyond one's means or ability to pay. But even that allows some creep when you consider taxes because we're talking about government. But then you destroy economic growth and the govt winds up with less revenue eventually anyway.

So for me, the Jeffersonian and Madison idea of the "tax-and-spend" clause should be what they said and what was written in the Constitution—only based on the enumerated powers listed under Congress. That's what limits spending.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Yeah, I don't really think they fit anyone very well.

I'm anxious to find someone who describes themselves as a fiscal liberal.

Just "liberal" would fit the bill.
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