KC residents - How are you voting on the smoking ban in April?

[Bowser]

Let's get a definitive look on how the Planet feels about this. Poll on the way.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Originally Posted by Simplex3

That ship sailed long, long ago. Look no further than the ADA for shining example.

Besides, how far are you willing to go? Can I, as a proprietor, ban blacks? How about just people over 6 feet tall? Can I hire all female pygmies? Everyone has a line about what is or isn't acceptable in certain circumstances. They just happen to be crossing one of yours right now.

I can't argue with that. Well said. However, I will say this, smoking cigarettes is legal, discriminating against people is not. Ban the act of smoking, not where it's done. I know most non smokers don't like that though, because as previously stated, the lost revenue will be shipped to your property taxes.

[Eleazar]

Originally Posted by Simplex3

I think if we have govt run healthcare then smokers should get no lung-related treatment, drinkers no liver related treatment, etc.

Sure it's stupid, but it's no dumber than govt. run healthcare.

Or, we could keep the existing system and just not obligate insurance companies to cover substance abuse-related illnesses?

[Simplex3]

Originally Posted by Mr Flopnuts

I can't argue with that. Well said. However, I will say this, smoking cigarettes is legal, discriminating against people is not. Ban the act of smoking, not where it's done. I know most non smokers don't like that though, because as previously stated, the lost revenue will be shipped to your property taxes.

Why is discrimination illegal? BTW, I can discriminate all I want in my own home. Sounds the same to me.

[Simplex3]

Originally Posted by Cochise

Or, we could keep the existing system and just not obligate insurance companies to cover substance abuse-related illnesses?

I'd be Ok with that, too.

Personally I'd prefer to go for a cash-and-carry system. Do what you want as long as you can either afford it or are Ok dealing with the consequences.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

What's wrong? Here's what wrong:

The market WOULDN'T decide.

For hundreds of years, people have been allowed to smoke in bars and restaurants. Non-smokers have had to endure smoking and it's hazardous side-effects. Non-smokers HAD NO CHOICE.

Now they do. There are a large number of restaurants in KC that voluntarily prohibit smoking, without a ban. Should we pass a law because your poor great-great-grandmother's second cousin had to endure secondhand smoke while working the Sailors at the waterfront tavern? I don't think so. The markets have recognized a demand, and accommodated it (without needing a law to get it done...Imagine that!)

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Since it's been proven to be a carcinogen, governments WORLDWIDE have enacted laws restricting smoking in public places. Why? Because, again, for the 10th time, it's a HEALTH HAZARD.

So's carbon monoxide. Where's your rant about your right to walk around without being exposed to the horrors of car exhaust and smog?

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

This isn't about a "business owner" deciding to serve only red meat or white meat, or the choice between serving beer or alcohol. It's about invading another person's rights to clean, smoke-free air.

Partly correct, it's about whether the business owner has the right to decide for themselves if they want to allow smoking in their establishment or not. Also, if they want to deal with the loss of business from smokers or non-smokers with regard to that decision.

Why can't you understand that?

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Here, I'll make it simple for you:

1. Go to a restaurant and have a nice meal.
2. Go to a restaurant, have a nice meal while enduring carcinogenic cigarette smoke while eating.

I'll take number 1.

So would I. Where we differ is you would decide for everyone else they can't take option 2 even if the business owner and his customer want to. That's bullshit.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Under what legal pretense should I be FORCED to inhale second-hand smoke if all I want is a meal?

None at all. I seriously doubt anyone has ever forced you into an establishment that allows smoking. If they did, you're covered under kidnapping laws I suspect.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

And if I don't want to inhale second-hand smoke, you're telling me my only option is to NOT GO?

Smart boy, I knew you could figure it out. Exactly! If the market can decide, you have a choice on non-smoking and smoking establishments to go to. If you don't want to breathe secondhand smoke, you choose to NOT GO to that business.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Brilliant!

Quite brilliant, actually. It's a snapshot of the system that made this countries economy superior to most of the world.

[bkkcoh]

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

There's a reason we're not a democracy, sir.

Link
Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy
Date: 1576
1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


So the public voting on an issue isn't a form of democracy? I understand that the country has a republic form of government, but if the public votes on a ballot initiative, that is a democracy. Isn't it?

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

Yeah, it should. More choices are always a good thing, IMO. It's certainly preferably to being dictated to.


Well, grow a sack and cope, or find another job if you can't handle being around a co-worker who makes a different choice than you.

Slayer Diablo, is that you?

Yeah, too bad the world doesn't revolve around "deal with it". I don't walk around the office farting or scratching myself at work... if I go to the gym or play racquetball during lunch, I shower for the benefit of others more than for my own benefit. For the same benefit of others, I don't show up to work in boxers everyday. I don't make people deal with my disgusting habits/behavior because I expect the same decency in return.

Oh wait, but if your disgusting habit is smoking, by all means... I don't mind going home smelling like I've been in a bar all day, or walking through a cloud of smoke on my way inside. Just remind me to take a dump in your cube so we'll be even.

Like I said before... I agree with smittybar's post about letting the owners of bars decide for themselves.... I can get a drink someplace else. But for a decent restaurant, work, shopping, etc; come on...

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I guess that, to me, it's far less likely that a smoking ban will harm the business of a restaurant than the business of a bar. That's a lot of the reason why I think smoking bans in bars are going a bit too far.

In states around the US and countries around the world, smoking bans have not harmed the overall economy of restaurants and bars and there has not been a long-term drop off in revenues.

As the population becomes more educated about the dangers of smoking, there will continue to be a downward spiral as to the number of smokers, making the law nearly irrelevant at some point in time.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by bkkcoh

Link
Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy
Date: 1576
1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


So the public voting on an issue isn't a form of democracy? I understand that the country has a republic form of government, but if the public votes on a ballot initiative, that is a democracy. Isn't it?

Technically, we are a Representative Republic, which is a form of Democracy. Some folks don't like one label or the other because of (IMO) some silly PR thing with the Democratic and Republican parties.

[Chiefs_5627]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Slayer Diablo, is that you?

Yeah, too bad the world doesn't revolve around "deal with it". I don't walk around the office farting or scratching myself at work... if I go to the gym or play racquetball during lunch, I shower for the benefit of others more than for my own benefit. For the same benefit of others, I don't show up to work in boxers everyday. I don't make people deal with my disgusting habits/behavior because I expect the same decency in return.

Oh wait, but if your disgusting habit is smoking, by all means... I don't mind going home smelling like I've been in a bar all day, or walking through a cloud of smoke on my way inside. Just remind me to take a dump in your cube so we'll be even.

Like I said before... I agree with smittybar's post about letting the owners of bars decide for themselves.... I can get a drink someplace else. But for a decent restaurant, work, shopping, etc; come on...

REP!

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by sd4chiefs

Study says Smoking damages IQ.

This thread seems to be a good case study.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Slayer Diablo, is that you?

Yeah, too bad the world doesn't revolve around "deal with it". I don't walk around the office farting or scratching myself at work... if I go to the gym or play racquetball during lunch, I shower for the benefit of others more than for my own benefit. For the same benefit of others, I don't show up to work in boxers everyday. I don't make people deal with my disgusting habits/behavior because I expect the same decency in return.

Oh wait, but if your disgusting habit is smoking, by all means... I don't mind going home smelling like I've been in a bar all day, or walking through a cloud of smoke on my way inside. Just remind me to take a dump in your cube so we'll be even.

Like I said before... I agree with smittybar's post about letting the owners of bars decide for themselves.... I can get a drink someplace else. But for a decent restaurant, work, shopping, etc; come on...

Sorry, I was a little curt there. You didn't deserve that. Mea Culpa.

I agree we should all make accommodation for each other. I just don't think they need to be (or should be, in many cases) legislated.

I'm just for leaving that decision for the individual owners, employees, and customers. I see no reason to give Government the authority to dictate that choice.

BTW- Nope, not Slayer Diablo. This is my only 'nym here.

[Simplex3]

Originally Posted by bkkcoh

Link
Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy
Date: 1576
1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


So the public voting on an issue isn't a form of democracy? I understand that the country has a republic form of government, but if the public votes on a ballot initiative, that is a democracy. Isn't it?

Please don't help.

The US is a representative republic. Most of the founding fathers loathed democracy.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

So's carbon monoxide. Where's your rant about your right to walk around without being exposed to the horrors of car exhaust and smog?

Benefit of the many, blah blah blah.

[memyselfI]

The tide has changed from this disgusting habit (CHOICE) being seen as a right to what it should be rightly seen as...

a disgusting habit (CHOICE).

I can't think of one other habit (CHOICE) that the majority of society is FORCED to endure against it's will by a minority. Thankfully, the smoking lobby and the number of smokers is losing numbers and influence.