Gretz - It's Been Done Before

[C-Mac]

It's Been Done Before
Sep 26, 2008, 8:46:46 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ

Not much fun being a Chiefs fans these days, is it? What with the franchise record 12-game losing streak, 21 quarters since the Chiefs have held the lead in a game and the fact that a loss this Sunday to Denver would give them a 0-4 start for the first time since 1980.

Funny thing about that 0-4 start some 28 years ago. The Chiefs finished that season 8-8. They were in the third-year of Marv Levy’s rebuilding project, one that began in 1978 with a 4-12 record, followed by 7-9 in the 1979 season.

Strange things happen when a team is rebuilding. There are dark days and seemingly no future. Then one day, a team that couldn’t get out of its way one week, pulls it together and starts winning. It has happened many times before.

I won’t take you back to the ‘80 Chiefs, who started 0-4 because just about every one of their starting offensive linemen was injured for the opening month. No, let’s look at something more recent.

The Tennessee Titans.

In 2003, the Titans were 12-4 and went to New England and lost a game in the playoffs to the Patriots, 17-14. They were a veteran team with guys like Derrick Mason, Steve McNair, Eddie George, Frank Wycheck, Kevin Carter, Jevon Kearse, Samari Role and Albert Haynesworth.

They were a veteran group, an old group and they were in salary cap jail. The Titans had kept many of their own stars with big money deals. They had little room to maneuver in free agency, whether it was keeping their own players that were coming up or signing others.

By the start of the ‘04 season, George, Wycheck and Kearse were gone. By the start of the ‘05 season, they were joined by Mason, Carter and Rolle. By the ‘06 season McNair was gone too. Only Haynesworth remained.

The ‘04 season finished with a 5-11 record. The ‘05 season finished with a final record of 4-12.

At the start of the ‘06 season, the Titans began 0-5. Combined with a 2-9 finish at the end of the ‘05 schedule, at one point they were 2-14, with an eight-game losing streak.

But while the record was going down, the talent level of young players was growing with good drafts in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

That ‘06 season started with a seven-point loss to the New York Jets. Then it was a 33-point defeat on the road to San Diego. Both of those clubs went to the playoffs that year. But in week No. 3, the Titans lost to Miami 13-10, a team that finished 6-10. They were crushed by Dallas at home 45-14, a Cowboys team that finished 9-7. Then it was the fifth straight loss for that ‘06 season, a one-pointer on the road to Indianapolis.

At that point, the Titans were 0-5, and they were averaging 12 points per game, while giving up 27 points per game. They had a rebuilt offense and a defense that had developed several players and sprinkled in with some veteran free agents, like LB David Thornton and DE Kyle Vanden Bosch. None were signed to contracts for big dollars.

It had been a season of tearing down, and then 21 games of rebuilding over two seasons. In that troubled time, the Titans were an ugly 9-28.

The eight-game losing streak ended in week No. 6, with a 25-22 victory on the road in Washington. Over the final 11 weeks of the ‘06 season, the Titans were 8-3.

Then last year, they went 10-6 and made the playoffs. This year they are 3-0.

So they went 9-28, and now they’ve gone 21-9.

It was hard. It was tough. It wasn’t easy. It’s not complete. The Titans have a problem at quarterback with their first-round guy from the ‘06 Draft in Vince Young. But they continue to win with veteran Kerry Collins. That’s because the rest of the team around him is so good and he’s not making the big mistakes that are part of his profile (176 career TD passes against 173 career INTs.)

The Titans didn’t just wake up one morning and suddenly were better. They paid a price. They got younger, they built through the draft and now, they are reaping the profits from their patience.

It’s a model for what the Chiefs are trying to do. It’s also a story that every Chiefs fan should remember during these dark days.

[Skip Towne]

We're going to have to dump Herm at some point. Waiting only prolongs the agony. Get a competent coach and get crackin'.

[Zouk]

Originally Posted by FAX

But the main difference is at HC and the staff. Fisher can coach rings around Herm with one hand tied behind his back and a box turtle on his head. Plus, Fisher's staff is better than ours ... I would say much better.

Herm Edwards:

Playoffs: 4 out of 7 years (57%)
Playoff record: 2-3

Jeff Fisher:

Playoffs: 5 out of 13 years (38%)
Playoff record: 5-5

It's all perception. And you cannot convince me Herm has had better talent than Fisher.

[triple]

if Fisher coached in New York, he would be regarded like Herm is, because they have similar records of accomplishment.

instead, he lost a super bowl once 10 years ago, and people think he's great.

hell Herm could well have lost a super bowl if not for Doug Brien.

Very little separates the two.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Zouk

Herm Edwards:

Playoffs: 4 out of 7 years (57%)
Playoff record: 2-3

Jeff Fisher:

Playoffs: 5 out of 13 years (38%)
Playoff record: 5-5

It's all perception. And you cannot convince me Herm has had better talent than Fisher.

You are truly amazing, Mr. Zouk. I've decided that I like you so I'm cancelling the hit.

I know it's difficult to believe. If I hadn't lived in Nashville, I wouldn't believe it either, but I have watched Fisher year after year, season after season, get more out of less than any other coach I've ever seen. For years, they have given him garbage players and he's worked miracles with them. His record is skewed due to factors that have nothing to do with actually playing football and the Tacks just happened to be in a very tough conference.

He's ten times the coach Herm is, Mr. Zouk. I know it's painful to hear and you probably think I'm wrong, or nuts, or some kind of evil wizard, but it's true.

I'm curious, though. How did you feel about the Sloption offensive strategy? Did you think that was an okay deal?

FAX

[DJJasonp]

Rebuilding can be derailed by:

#1: a horrible coaching staff

#2: horrible personnel decisions.


....whoops!!!

[Zouk]

Originally Posted by FAX

He's ten times the coach Herm is, Mr. Zouk. I know it's painful to hear and you probably think I'm wrong, or nuts, or some kind of evil wizard, but it's true.

FAX

I understand your perceptions very well - no need to explain. I'm just telling you the facts.

Jeff Fisher had Steve McNair for 9 years. Herm has had bum shoulder Chad Pennington, a concussed end of the line Trent Green, and Damon Huard. And he's still matched or surpassed his resume. Just the facts.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Zouk

I understand your perceptions very well - no need to explain. I'm just telling you the facts.

Jeff Fisher had Steve McNair for 9 years. Herm has had bum shoulder Chad Pennington, a concussed end of the line Trent Green, and Damon Huard. And he's still matched or surpassed his resume. Just the facts.

It also might help Mr. Fax if he actually watched the games, instead of listening to Lenny "Rain Cloud" Dawson every Sunday.

No offense.

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by Zouk

I understand your perceptions very well - no need to explain. I'm just telling you the facts.

Jeff Fisher had Steve McNair for 9 years. Herm has had bum shoulder Chad Pennington, a concussed end of the line Trent Green, and Damon Huard. And he's still matched or surpassed his resume. Just the facts.

Maybe one coach was able to keep his QB's relatively healthy and the other coach runs a reeruned scheme that gets his QB's killed.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Zouk

I understand your perceptions very well - no need to explain. I'm just telling you the facts.

Jeff Fisher had Steve McNair for 9 years. Herm has had bum shoulder Chad Pennington, a concussed end of the line Trent Green, and Damon Huard. And he's still matched or surpassed his resume. Just the facts.

I got facts too!! The year before the Tacks left Houston, they were a despised team. No one showed up at their games and they were just biding time waiting to leave the city forever. Then, there was a year when they had no home at all and played in college stadiums in Memphis and Nashville (wherever they could find a place to play). That sucked. The following year, they played in the new stadium. Throughout that time, they practiced anyplace they could find a field (high school fields, college fields, pastures, etc.). They probably practiced in a dozen different locations. Think about it. That's disruptive. And, I promise you, a few seasons like that will negatively affect a peep's win/loss record.

Also, peeps on this board have bashed McNair for years. Now he's so much better than Pennington? I don't wish to argue with you, but really ... temper your loyalty with some ding dang objectivity.

And what about the Sloption? I'm sincerely interested in your views on this deal. If anyone can tell me why it was a justifiable tactic, it's you and I'd love to hear that rationale.

FAX

[Zouk]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Maybe one coach was able to keep his QB's relatively healthy and the other coach runs a reeruned scheme that gets his QB's killed.

Yeah, that's right. Steve McNair never got hurt. And where's Vince Young?

[FAX]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

It also might help Mr. Fax if he actually watched the games, instead of listening to Lenny "Rain Cloud" Dawson every Sunday.

No offense.

LOLORLRLO

My tapes are due any day now. They have been delayed. I've seen some snippets, though. I may be off base, Mr. DaneMcCloud, but only by a few steps, I think.

FAX

[Zouk]

Originally Posted by FAX

Also, peeps on this board have bashed McNair for years. Now he's so much better than Pennington? I don't wish to argue with you, but really ... temper your loyalty with some ding dang objectivity.

And what about the Sloption? I'm sincerely interested in your views on this deal. If anyone can tell me why it was a justifiable tactic, it's you and I'd love to hear that rationale.

FAX

I never bashed McNair. He was a good player who you could win with, and Jeff Fisher did just that. Following on that - don't take my posts as bashing Jeff Fisher. I think he is a very good coach and I would defend him heartily if he coached the Chiefs. What is way out of bounds is the perception of Herm, and that is the rationale for my 3 year long crusade.

The sloption - is this the 3 Hagans plays? If so, I really don't see this as a big deal either way. It certainly is not the reason we lost the Raiders game. It's hard for me to see how people could think it was. Miami did very well with a similar series of plays in NE last week.

I have been really clear that Herm has made a terrible mistake this year and that was playing Tyler Thigpen. He thought he could play and he was wrong. I am very relieved that he has chosen to move on.

And the core of Gretz's argument about the Titans is a very good one. People were not singing Jeff Fisher's praises during that period, but because he's a good coach he got that thing back on track. That will happen here too.

[Micjones]

Herman Edwards strikes me as a coach who will never win anything meaningful because he's so die-hard about his football philosophies. Even when they fail him miserably.

And I'm honestly not all that confident in his ability to evaluate the QB position. OR...his handling of player personnel.

I think he's a great motivator and solid evaluator of talent (everywhere but QB).

[FAX]

I didn't think you were bashing Fisher, Mr. Zouk. Not at all. My point is simply that a lot of people look at his wins and losses and draw their conclusions from that statistic alone. The facts you presented are a good example of that. What they forget is that he's dealt with a whole lot of unbelievably bizarre distractions over the years ... far more than most coaches ever will ... and unfortunately for him, it adversely affected his record. But, to be perfectly honest, I know him through some charitable activities and I like him personally, so I'm prejudiced.

Your comment about "People were not singing Jeff Fisher's praises during that period ..." is curious, though. Sure, there were some folks who were harping on him, but just so you know, the vast majority of peeps in Nashville were tremendously supportive of him - even during those crazy times. I think it was because they were just so thrilled to have an NFL team moving in. Had he not started winning, though, I'm sure that would have changed.

As for the Sloption ... yes. The Sloption were those plays. No biggie? Well, it's true that it had little impact on the outcome of the game, but that wasn't why I asked. I'm more interested in your thoughts in respect to the decision itself. Did you think that was a game situation that called for the Sloption? Did you think it was a wise tactic? Or, perhaps, you thought it might have come across as a strange and somewhat rash move indicative of desperation.

FAX

[Zouk]

The Titans moved to Nashville in 1997. The period Gretz described was 2004-2006.

Originally Posted by FAX

As for the Sloption ... yes. The Sloption were those plays. No biggie? Well, it's true that it had little impact on the outcome of the game, but that wasn't why I asked. I'm more interested in your thoughts in respect to the decision itself. Did you think that was a game situation that called for the Sloption? Did you think it was a wise tactic? Or, perhaps, you thought it might have come across as a strange and somewhat rash move indicative of desperation.

FAX

Desperation is the rational response to having to play an immobile Huard and Tyler Thigpen. I like that package - that's all Chan Gailey. And I do think we're going to see similar plays with Charles lined up as QB soon. Again- check out how well it worked in New England last week. Those plays can be very successful.