NFL Draft The Tebow experiment is inevitable - Page 2

Deberg_1990 · 01-13-2009, 11:56 AM

Very good read.

With some inputs from our own Chan Gailey.

Sounds like the NFL is definately curious about the guy and his abilities.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

Nice of Tim Tebow to end the suspense early. But the debate on his future will continue unabated, and not just on blog posts and sports talk radio.

This debate has nothing to do with his place in college football history or fast-tracking his path to sainthood. Without taking another snap for the Gators, Tebow is already on the short list of the best to play the college game.

The commentary on his impeccable character is tiresome, but Tebow has already won a Heisman Trophy and two national championships. (If not for some very sketchy voting patterns this year, he would have two Heismans.) He could leave Gainesville next spring with two statues and three national titles, which would be unprecedented. I have no idea if he is a better college player than Doc Blanchard, but he's in the team picture.

Yet there is a far more intriguing argument on the table: Where does Tebow fit in the NFL? Does he fit in the NFL at all? I won't pretend to know the answer but I can guarantee there is no shortage of NFL executives and coaches dying to find out. And anybody who dismisses Tebow on the grounds he's just another college athlete who can't play the NFL game is on a different page from the people who will decide his football future.

In November I wrote a story about the re-emergence of single wing-based formations and plays -- a.k.a. the "Wildcat'' -- in the NFL and college football. Tebow's name kept coming up, and without provocation. Example: When I spoke with Baltimore Ravens offensive coordinator (and former Miami Dolphins head coach) Cam Cameron, he was talking about playing in the NFL with a full-time single wing-style quarterback. He expressed skepticism and then added, "Maybe Tebow can do it.''

I hadn't asked him about Tebow. But he mentioned Tebow just the same. Kansas City Chiefs offensive coordinator Chan Gailey, who has been a head coach in both the NFL (Dallas Cowboys) and college (Georgia Tech), did the same thing. And so did Patriots head coach Bill Belichick, who introduced Tebow into our interview by saying, "Tebow, obviously, is a special one.''

The NFL is fascinated with Tebow because he represents a potential evolutionary step in offensive professional football. (Emphasis here on potential because it's all a guessing game at this point.)

Belichick says, "To win in the NFL you have to be able to throw the ball.'' And that is unquestioned. However, the complexity and athleticism of NFL defenses challenge the passing game in such ways that smart offensive minds are constantly trying to find a means to make the quarterback a more effective and dangerous player. They all would love to find a quarterback who is a threat to pass or run on every snap. All of them.

The option game has been a staple of college football for decades, whether in the Oklahoma T-formation under Bud Wilkinson in the 1950s or the Texas and Oklahoma wishbones in the 70s or the Vince Young/Pat White zone-read option in this decade. Yet the option has never translated to the NFL on the theory that professional defenses are too fast and too physical. Option reads would be ineffective because NFL players would overwhelm it with speed. And the quarterback would get mauled.

Slowly, however, rigid old rules are loosening. There is no movement afoot to install the Air Force flexbone in the NFL, but there is absolutely an interest in using option principles to complicate defensive preparation. "Somebody, someday is going to run the option in the NFL,'' says Gailey, "and when that happens, all bets are off.''

For now, the goal is more modest. Gradually, over the past several seasons -- culminating in the Miami Wildcat -- NFL teams have experimented with direct snaps to a single wing-style tailback. (With the Dolphins, that was Ronnie Brown). This forces the defense to account for an extra player as a potential ballcarrier and reduces the number of bodies they can commit to the box.

If that player is a threat to pass, the game is fundamentally changed.

Michael Vick proved himself a dangerous runner in the NFL. But he was never a consistently accurate thrower. Likewise Vince Young, albeit with a lesser body of work. Long before either of them, Randall Cunningham was an effective thrower and a dangerous scrambler, but with few designed running plays. The truth is the NFL has never had a player who can consistently threaten defenses equally with his arm and his feet. And the NFL collectively wonders if Tebow is that guy.

As I quoted Belichick in the Dec. 1 issue of Sports Illustrated, "It's going to be very interesting to see what happens when Tebow comes into this league. There aren't many players who can run and throw.''

Yet at lower levels of the game, dual-threat quarterbacks are becoming the norm. In youth and high school games, teams are running spread offenses with zone reads and quarterback off-tackle runs. It's remarkable that Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan were so successful in the NFL as rookies this year, and they are both traditional pocket quarterbacks in the mold of Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. But as Belichick says, "There's a lot of interest in what you could do with a real athlete back there, like an Elway, with his ability to run the ball.''

Said Gailey in SI, "Over the next 10 or 15 years, it's going to evolve because the runner-thrower is the kind of quarterback the college game is producing now.''

Tebow is the prototype of that quarterback. At 6-foot-2½, 238 pounds, he is big, strong and relatively fast. (Not Vick fast, but not Manning slow, either). He has the girth and toughness to withstand hits, although probably not a full season's worth of NFL hits. ("Look at how short the careers are for running backs in the NFL,'' says Belichick.). As a passer, Tebow is no Ryan, but he is a far more accurate thrower than Vick or Young.

The challenge for NFL thinkers is how best to use Tebow. Can he be a full-time quarterback? (Not likely, unless he is re-made as a pocket passer). How many times can he carry the ball, making himself a threat without getting, as Belichick says, "broken in half?'' (Maybe 10 times a week? Maybe only five?). Can an NFL offense function effectively with two quarterbacks. Say, Tyler Thigpen for 40 snaps and Tim Tebow for 20? What would this do to your salary structure? Is a Super Bowl worth paying two quarterbacks NFL-starter money?

No answers here. Not yet. But know this: The questions are being asked by the people who write the checks. The Tebow Experiment is forestalled for a year, but it will absolutely take place.

Kerberos · 01-13-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

With the most talented roster in college football. If Tebow QBed the 2008 chiefs, we go 0-16. Florida runs a variation of about 15 offensive plays total.

yup

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncCHIEFfan

But Tbow knows how to win

Knowing how to win and doing it in college does not always preclude knowing how to win and doing it professionally.

KCCHIEFS27 · 01-13-2009, 01:25 PM

The way people are talking on here, it seems as if they think Tebow will have to come in to the NFL and play 1 against 11. If he can be put into the right situation, he'll be ridiculous. Matter of fact, after reading most of these posts, I hope he comes into the league and transforms the game. The NFL isn't all about physical assets. There is a lot to do with the mental aspect, almost to the point it matters more than the physical tools, and Tebow, of course, has his head on straight.

**DaKCMan AP** · 01-13-2009, 01:28 PM

FWIW, the Gators hired a new QB coach who has NFL coaching experience and worked with Tom Brady, Brian Griese, Chad Henne and John Navarre at Michigan.

**RealSNR** · 01-13-2009, 01:33 PM

Overrated smoke! Don't breathe this!

Sweet Daddy Hate · 01-13-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan

The Lions will take him after passing on Stafford.

Next year?

ncCHIEFfan · 01-13-2009, 01:36 PM

His college comment is very true but how can we know how he would handle the 2008 Chiefs? I think it would be nice to have someone who knows how it feels to win big games at the QB position. However regaurdless who is our "young" QB we need a real position coach!

Otter · 01-13-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basileus777

It's easy to teach someone proper throwing mechanics, how to play behind center, read defenses, and make accurate NFL throws? Tebow's physical tools aren't really all that impressive. His arm is nothing special and while he's big, his running style doesn't translate to the next level.

I certainly wouldn't take him before the 4th round just saying he might may a good project for a team that is already set at QB for a couple years. He has a lot of the stuff you can't teach.

Sweet Daddy Hate · 01-13-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaKCMan AP

FWIW, the Gators hired a new QB coach who has NFL coaching experience and worked with Tom Brady, Brian Griese, Chad Henne and John Navarre at Michigan.

Good, he needs it. He may love Florida, and "love this", and "love that", but me thinks what he really loves is the stone-cold fact that if he's serious about going pro, he needs this coming off season and subsequent season to get it together.
Somebody whispered in his ear that despite winning the BCS Title, there was NO WAY IN HELL he was going in the 1st round.

bigbucks24 · 01-13-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsOne

He's tough, an athlete and a winner. Can't understand why so many people believe he will never be any good.

This debate came up a few years ago. Some people touted Vince Young and the guy that was going to change the NFL. When it was pointed out that he had poor mechanics, wasn't accurate, couldn't read defenses and didn't have a lot between his ears, many yelled, "But he is a winner. Isn't that what it is all about? Winning?" When he went to Tennesee and took over and won a few games, his fans puffed out their chest with pride. It was pointed out that the D really stepped up, the runnnng game got a lot better and VY's passing stats were abysmal. "But he is a winner. All he does is win. At the college level or the pro's. He's a winner. And that's what it's all about." I just don't buy it.

He may end up being great. He may change the NFL. He may revolutionize the position. But I don't think he will be sucessful because he is a "winner".

Sorry for the rant. And this wasn't directed soley at you.

ncCHIEFfan · 01-13-2009, 01:54 PM

I think we should just get the LB from Wake Forrest. Reguardless of GM and Coach.

FringeNC · 01-13-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suds79

I'm not even much of a Thigpen fan but I think these guys are remarkably similar.

Thigpen - 6'1 224 , Tebow - 6'2 238

Both guys best assets is their running ability. Tebow is a pinch more physical. Thipen is definitely faster... If I had to choose, I'll take the speed.

Both have decent arms but won't blow you away.

And both as far as we know have only been successful in the spread offense.

So what am i saying? I'm say that I don't think Tim Tebow will be much of an NFL QB. Vince Young was the most dominating college player I've ever seen. And he stinks as an NFL QB.

Thigpen has better mechanics, and those are Thigpen's weakness.

Tebow will be given every chance to succeed in the NFL -- everyone is in love with his intangibles.

**RealSNR** · 01-13-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbucks24

This debate came up a few years ago. Some people touted Vince Young and the guy that was going to change the NFL. When it was pointed out that he had poor mechanics, wasn't accurate, couldn't read defenses and didn't have a lot between his ears, many yelled, "But he is a winner. Isn't that what it is all about? Winning?" When he went to Tennesee and took over and won a few games, his fans puffed out their chest with pride. It was pointed out that the D really stepped up, the runnnng game got a lot better and VY's passing stats were abysmal. "But he is a winner. All he does is win. At the college level or the pro's. He's a winner. And that's what it's all about." I just don't buy it.

He may end up being great. He may change the NFL. He may revolutionize the position. But I don't think he will be sucessful because he is a "winner".

Sorry for the rant. And this wasn't directed soley at you.

Yep.

"He makes the big plays when it matters."

It'd be nice if he could make the majority of the other plays, too.

Otter · 01-13-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

He may end up being great. He may change the NFL. He may revolutionize the position. But I don't think he will be sucessful because he is a "winner".

The way the rules revolve around protecting the passing game no player is going to come in and revolutionize the game without a paradigm shift in rules. It's a pocket passers game until that happens.

I've been wrong before but don't see it happening.

**RealSNR** · 01-13-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncCHIEFfan

I think we should just get the LB from Wake Forrest. Reguardless of GM and Coach.

ReGARDless of our GM and coach, we shouldn't draft a linebacker at 3

**DaKCMan AP** · 01-13-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbucks24

This debate came up a few years ago. Some people touted Vince Young and the guy that was going to change the NFL. When it was pointed out that he had poor mechanics, wasn't accurate, couldn't read defenses and didn't have a lot between his ears, many yelled, "But he is a winner. Isn't that what it is all about? Winning?" When he went to Tennesee and took over and won a few games, his fans puffed out their chest with pride. It was pointed out that the D really stepped up, the runnnng game got a lot better and VY's passing stats were abysmal. "But he is a winner. All he does is win. At the college level or the pro's. He's a winner. And that's what it's all about." I just don't buy it.

He may end up being great. He may change the NFL. He may revolutionize the position. But I don't think he will be sucessful because he is a "winner".

Sorry for the rant. And this wasn't directed soley at you.

While Tebow shares some of the knocks that VY had coming out of school, Tebow is not as dumb as VY and Tebow can read a defense (although he has the added luxury of doing it while not having to take a 3-7 step dropback).

01-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $154454	The Tebow experiment is inevitable Very good read. With some inputs from our own Chan Gailey. Sounds like the NFL is definately curious about the guy and his abilities. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1 Nice of Tim Tebow to end the suspense early. But the debate on his future will continue unabated, and not just on blog posts and sports talk radio. This debate has nothing to do with his place in college football history or fast-tracking his path to sainthood. Without taking another snap for the Gators, Tebow is already on the short list of the best to play the college game. The commentary on his impeccable character is tiresome, but Tebow has already won a Heisman Trophy and two national championships. (If not for some very sketchy voting patterns this year, he would have two Heismans.) He could leave Gainesville next spring with two statues and three national titles, which would be unprecedented. I have no idea if he is a better college player than Doc Blanchard, but he's in the team picture. Yet there is a far more intriguing argument on the table: Where does Tebow fit in the NFL? Does he fit in the NFL at all? I won't pretend to know the answer but I can guarantee there is no shortage of NFL executives and coaches dying to find out. And anybody who dismisses Tebow on the grounds he's just another college athlete who can't play the NFL game is on a different page from the people who will decide his football future. In November I wrote a story about the re-emergence of single wing-based formations and plays -- a.k.a. the "Wildcat'' -- in the NFL and college football. Tebow's name kept coming up, and without provocation. Example: When I spoke with Baltimore Ravens offensive coordinator (and former Miami Dolphins head coach) Cam Cameron, he was talking about playing in the NFL with a full-time single wing-style quarterback. He expressed skepticism and then added, "Maybe Tebow can do it.'' I hadn't asked him about Tebow. But he mentioned Tebow just the same. Kansas City Chiefs offensive coordinator Chan Gailey, who has been a head coach in both the NFL (Dallas Cowboys) and college (Georgia Tech), did the same thing. And so did Patriots head coach Bill Belichick, who introduced Tebow into our interview by saying, "Tebow, obviously, is a special one.'' The NFL is fascinated with Tebow because he represents a potential evolutionary step in offensive professional football. (Emphasis here on potential because it's all a guessing game at this point.) Belichick says, "To win in the NFL you have to be able to throw the ball.'' And that is unquestioned. However, the complexity and athleticism of NFL defenses challenge the passing game in such ways that smart offensive minds are constantly trying to find a means to make the quarterback a more effective and dangerous player. They all would love to find a quarterback who is a threat to pass or run on every snap. All of them. The option game has been a staple of college football for decades, whether in the Oklahoma T-formation under Bud Wilkinson in the 1950s or the Texas and Oklahoma wishbones in the 70s or the Vince Young/Pat White zone-read option in this decade. Yet the option has never translated to the NFL on the theory that professional defenses are too fast and too physical. Option reads would be ineffective because NFL players would overwhelm it with speed. And the quarterback would get mauled. Slowly, however, rigid old rules are loosening. There is no movement afoot to install the Air Force flexbone in the NFL, but there is absolutely an interest in using option principles to complicate defensive preparation. "Somebody, someday is going to run the option in the NFL,'' says Gailey, "and when that happens, all bets are off.'' For now, the goal is more modest. Gradually, over the past several seasons -- culminating in the Miami Wildcat -- NFL teams have experimented with direct snaps to a single wing-style tailback. (With the Dolphins, that was Ronnie Brown). This forces the defense to account for an extra player as a potential ballcarrier and reduces the number of bodies they can commit to the box. If that player is a threat to pass, the game is fundamentally changed. Michael Vick proved himself a dangerous runner in the NFL. But he was never a consistently accurate thrower. Likewise Vince Young, albeit with a lesser body of work. Long before either of them, Randall Cunningham was an effective thrower and a dangerous scrambler, but with few designed running plays. The truth is the NFL has never had a player who can consistently threaten defenses equally with his arm and his feet. And the NFL collectively wonders if Tebow is that guy. As I quoted Belichick in the Dec. 1 issue of Sports Illustrated, "It's going to be very interesting to see what happens when Tebow comes into this league. There aren't many players who can run and throw.'' Yet at lower levels of the game, dual-threat quarterbacks are becoming the norm. In youth and high school games, teams are running spread offenses with zone reads and quarterback off-tackle runs. It's remarkable that Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan were so successful in the NFL as rookies this year, and they are both traditional pocket quarterbacks in the mold of Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. But as Belichick says, "There's a lot of interest in what you could do with a real athlete back there, like an Elway, with his ability to run the ball.'' Said Gailey in SI, "Over the next 10 or 15 years, it's going to evolve because the runner-thrower is the kind of quarterback the college game is producing now.'' Tebow is the prototype of that quarterback. At 6-foot-2½, 238 pounds, he is big, strong and relatively fast. (Not Vick fast, but not Manning slow, either). He has the girth and toughness to withstand hits, although probably not a full season's worth of NFL hits. ("Look at how short the careers are for running backs in the NFL,'' says Belichick.). As a passer, Tebow is no Ryan, but he is a far more accurate thrower than Vick or Young. The challenge for NFL thinkers is how best to use Tebow. Can he be a full-time quarterback? (Not likely, unless he is re-made as a pocket passer). How many times can he carry the ball, making himself a threat without getting, as Belichick says, "broken in half?'' (Maybe 10 times a week? Maybe only five?). Can an NFL offense function effectively with two quarterbacks. Say, Tyler Thigpen for 40 snaps and Tim Tebow for 20? What would this do to your salary structure? Is a Super Bowl worth paying two quarterbacks NFL-starter money? No answers here. Not yet. But know this: The questions are being asked by the people who write the checks. The Tebow Experiment is forestalled for a year, but it will absolutely take place.
Posts: 68,629

01-13-2009, 01:25 PM	#17
KCCHIEFS27 Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: KS Casino cash: $10019064	The way people are talking on here, it seems as if they think Tebow will have to come in to the NFL and play 1 against 11. If he can be put into the right situation, he'll be ridiculous. Matter of fact, after reading most of these posts, I hope he comes into the league and transforms the game. The NFL isn't all about physical assets. There is a lot to do with the mental aspect, almost to the point it matters more than the physical tools, and Tebow, of course, has his head on straight. __________________
Posts: 3,088

01-13-2009, 01:28 PM	#18
DaKCMan AP Beloved & Awesome CP Celebrity Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Florida Casino cash: $5604952	FWIW, the Gators hired a new QB coach who has NFL coaching experience and worked with Tom Brady, Brian Griese, Chad Henne and John Navarre at Michigan. __________________
Posts: 35,714

01-13-2009, 01:33 PM	#19
RealSNR Special Teams ACE!!! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Where the hell is SNR Casino cash: $-1484792	Overrated smoke! Don't breathe this!
Posts: 93,408

01-13-2009, 01:36 PM	#21
ncCHIEFfan Starter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Winston Salem, NC Casino cash: $8412075	His college comment is very true but how can we know how he would handle the 2008 Chiefs? I think it would be nice to have someone who knows how it feels to win big games at the QB position. However regaurdless who is our "young" QB we need a real position coach!
Posts: 568

01-13-2009, 01:54 PM	#25
ncCHIEFfan Starter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Winston Salem, NC Casino cash: $8412075	I think we should just get the LB from Wake Forrest. Reguardless of GM and Coach.
Posts: 568