Interesting case to take Dan Williams - Page 3

**jjchieffan** · 03-31-2010, 11:35 PM

The Chiefs Need Williams More Than They Need Berry

Just the other day I told you I thought the Chiefs should take a long, hard look at drafting Dan Williams at the #5 spot. I have been thinking about it more and more and I am growing more and more convinced that acquiring Dan Williams is the most important move the Chiefs could make to improve their defense.
Most people consider taking Dan Williams at #5 a drastic reach. They shouldn’t. It is an outdated idea.
Nose tackle in the 3-4 defense is without a doubt the single most important position. A team has no business running the 3-4 without a proper nose.
When you decide to go with 3 lineman instead of 4, you are asking that big fella in the middle to do the job of two men so that your defense has the advantage of having 3 linebackers instead of 4. The linebackers in a 3-4 can see the field better and have a little bit more time to react. The 3-4 also gives the defense the advantage of choosing who the 4th rusher is going to be on any given play. It puts the offense at a disadvantage because they can’t be sure of where that 4th rusher is going to come from.
The Chiefs ran the 3-4 last year without a real nose tackle in Ron Edwards. He plays hard but he isn’t even that good of a 4-3 guard, let alone a 3-4 nose. He had only 26 tackles last year. He also had difficulty eating up blockers.
When the nose tackle fails to eat up blockers, they get to the second level and swallow up the linebackers and safeties who are rushing in to help. If you watched the Chiefs play last year you saw Williams and Mays constantly getting blocked before they could get to the ball carrier, thus springing running backs for huge gains.
Every good NT that might have hit free agency was either franchised or re-signed this offseason. The Patriots opened up the wallet, something they hardly ever do, to pay Vince Wilfork. Teams are switching to the 3-4 so rapidly these days that pretty soon the trendy thing to do will be to switch to the 4-3. The overwhelming number of teams moving to the 3-4 means that quality players that fit the scheme are going to be harder and harder to come by.
In years past, teams could wait until the 2nd or even 3rd round to find their nose tackle because not very many teams were running a 3-4. That is not the case now. It is time for the NFL and draft experts alike, to stop undervaluing the nose tackle as a potential top 10 pick. Without him, the linebackers and safeties can not do their jobs.
Eric Berry, the player many Chiefs fans want the team to go after this year, may not be so high on the draft boards if it was not for his teammate, Dan Williams. The following is from Toolbox.com:
One of the more experienced players in this year’s draft class, Williams has wrapped up an impressive career at Tennessee and is more than ready to take his game to the next level. The defensive tackle redshirted in Knoxville in 2005 and he was basically a full-time starter ever since the beginning of his sophomore campaign in 2007. Although he was often overshadowed on a defense led by star safety Eric Berry, Williams was arguably the glue to the Volunteer defense over the past several years. He recorded 40 tackles and two sacks as a sophomore and as a junior he was third on the team in tackles for loss and second in quarterback hurries, while making 48 total tackles. As a senior, Williams ranked first on the team with nine tackles for loss and nine quarterback hurries. He recorded 70 total tackles (36 solo), 2.5 sacks, and one fumble recovery.
In addition to racking up his own stats, Williams wreaks havoc in the middle of the line to open things up for guys like Berry, linebacker Rico McCoy, and defensive end Chris Walker. “His numbers don’t necessarily show it as far as sacks, but he’s been a force in the middle,” said former head coach Lane Kiffin during the 2009 season. Added McCoy: “I wouldn’t have as many tackles without playing behind Dan. Dan’s taking up a block or two every play, because he demands that attention.”
I am not giving Dan Williams all the credit for Eric Berry being Eric Berry. By all accounts, Eric Berry is a special player and could be great. If the Chiefs draft him, I would be absolutely thrilled but I will still be very concerned about the defense if they fail to add a good nose tackle. No matter how good Berry is, he won’t be able to make the defensive line penetrate the backfield and he won’t be able to make plays if he is running into blockers before he can get to the ball carrier.
If it is ok to take a LT to protect your QB in the top 5 then taking the best player at the position that is the entire key to your defensive success should be as well.
There are 3 good prospects in this draft at NT and they are Dan Williams, Terrance Cody and Cam Thomas. I would say there is an almost 100% chance both Williams and Cody will be gone before the 2nd round begins and probably a 85% chance Thomas is gone before the Chiefs use their first 2nd round pick. After Thomas there is a significant drop off in talent at the position.
Romeo Crennel attended Dan’s Pro Day himself and Pioli proved last season when he took Tyson Jackson that he isn’t afraid to take the best player available at a position if he thinks it will help his team. Don’t be surprised if the Chiefs take Williams early. I would rather have the Chiefs “reach” for the best guy at his position than have them roll the dice that they might be able to turn some 4th or 5th round pick into the most important player on their defense.
Berry would be great but the Chiefs can probably get a very good safety in the 2nd round. I can’t say the same for nose tackle. Moreover, a 2nd round safety may even exceed expectations if big Dan Williams is up front wearing Red and Gold, swallowing up blockers, stuffing the run and opening up holes for the defenders.
Think of it like this. Which would you rather have? A great safety playing below his potential because of bad defense in front of him or a good safety playing great because of his teammates in front of him are great as well?
I’ll go with #2 every time.

http://arrowheadaddict.com/2010/03/3...ey-need-berry/

**The Franchise** · 04-01-2010, 02:20 PM

The way it's looking right now.......I'm going to guess it falls like this.

Rams - Sam Bradford
Lions - Ndamkong Suh
Bucs - Gerald McCoy
Redskins - Jimmy Clausen
Chiefs - Eric Berry
Seahawks - Russell Okung
Browns - Joe Haden
Raiders - Anthony Davis

**DaneMcCloud** · 04-01-2010, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

i was think more along the lines of using Glenn Dorsey to move back up.

but if Williams does go in the top 10 then it would be too high for us to jump back up. But if he were to fall into the teens or so then we should consider it.

It's all speculation but I can't see him falling past Miami. Denver may pass on him because of their recent free agent acquisitions but if the Chiefs DID trade Dorsey, who would line up at RDE? And please don't say Alex Magee, because he only only slightly less awful than TyJack.

FTR, I can't envision any scenario where the Chiefs take Berry. I'll do cartwheels if they do but IMO, it's just not a Pioli-like pick.

Nightfyre · 04-01-2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

That top 5 has the 2 best players not going top 5, sounds pretty far fetched.

???? Suh and berry are in the top 5 in this scenario. I recall a similar scenario just two years ago.
Posted via Mobile Device

Nightfyre · 04-01-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

The way it's looking right now.......I'm going to guess it falls like this.

Rams - Sam Bradford
Lions - Ndamkong Suh
Bucs - Gerald McCoy
Redskins - Jimmy Clausen
Chiefs - Eric Berry
Seahawks - Russell Okung
Browns - Joe Haden
Raiders - Anthony Davis

I am projecting as follows:

Stl - Bradford
Det - suh
TB - berry
Was - okung
KC - clausen
Sea - mccoy
Cle - haden
Oak - campbell
Buf - trent williams
Jax - bryant
Den - mcclain
Mia - dan williams
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Mr. Laz · 04-01-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

It's all speculation but I can't see him falling past Miami. Denver may pass on him because of their recent free agent acquisitions but if the Chiefs DID trade Dorsey, who would line up at RDE? And please don't say Alex Magee, because he only only slightly less awful than TyJack.

FTR, I can't envision any scenario where the Chiefs take Berry. I'll do cartwheels if they do but IMO, it's just not a Pioli-like pick.

Magee would be in the mix ... so would Ron Edwards.

if we traded for Dan Williams then Edwards would slide over because he's not a NT anyway.

OLB Tamba Hali - draft pick(jerry Hughes)
RDE Ron Edwards - Magee
NT Dan Willliams - Shaun Smith
LDE Tyson Jackson - Gilberry
OLB Mike Vrabel - Studebaker

**DaneMcCloud** · 04-01-2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

Magee would be in the mix ... so would Ron Edwards.

if we traded for Dan Williams then Edwards would slide over because he's not a NT anyway.

OLB Tamba Hali - draft pick(jerry Hughes)
RDE Ron Edwards - Magee
NT Dan Willliams - Shaun Smith
LDE Tyson Jackson - Gilberry
OLB Mike Vrabel - Studebaker

Yeouch.

Then if that were the case (which I can't even imagine would be), they Chiefs would likely be looking at ANOTHER 5 tech with next year's first or second because Magee is not a RDE in ANY scheme.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 04-01-2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

Magee would be in the mix ... so would Ron Edwards.

if we traded for Dan Williams then Edwards would slide over because he's not a NT anyway.

OLB Tamba Hali - draft pick(jerry Hughes)
RDE Ron Edwards - Magee
NT Dan Willliams - Shaun Smith
LDE Tyson Jackson - Gilberry
OLB Mike Vrabel - Studebaker

That is a shitload of ****.

Hammock Parties · 04-01-2010, 07:30 PM

Ron Edwards as a RDE.

Mr. Laz · 04-01-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

Ron Edwards as a RDE.

once again we have to explain to a moron how the 3-4 defense works.

in a 3-4 defense the RDE ends up inside as 2-gap type DT after the ROLB steps up.

so yes ... imo ron edwards is more of a 2-gap DT than he is a NT.

is it what we want? no, our defense line is a mess but until we get completely converted over 3-4 then we make do.

Mecca · 04-01-2010, 07:45 PM

Ron Edwards ****ing sucks...the fact that he's even on the team is a joke.

**notorious** · 04-01-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Ron Edwards ****ing sucks...the fact that he's even on the team shows how much this team sucks.

FYP

Mr. Laz · 04-01-2010, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Ron Edwards ****ing sucks...the fact that he's even on the team is a joke.

i don't disagree but the reality is that he IS on the team and imo the most natural position for him is the 3-tech DT. The closest thing in a Crennel type 3-4 defense to the 3-tech is the RDE.

90% of the time we move the ROLB up which makes the RDE (sort of) a 3-tech DT.

Ralphy Boy · 04-09-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

so how does williams compare to raji from last year?

still puzzled, just on position, that we took jackson over raji....though i assume they had concerns about his long term work ethic....or something

If memory serves, Raji had a failed drug test. I'm going to stereotype and say that it's not a good thing to give a bunch of money to a fatass that likes to smoke weed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

I would ****ing be livid as hell if we took him at 5. 15...ok, but not at 5, especially when Berry is sitting there.

You better warm up to the idea then.
We've been talking about this for over a month.

For the record, I don't necessarily think Williams is worth the #5 pick, but as I've said before, I think we'll pick him and I think he would benefit us more than Berry in the short term. (Seeing as we're ranked 31st against the run and around 22nd against the pass). I don't think he's a better NT than Berry is FS, I just think the NT position is more important in a 3-4. I'd prefer to slide down a few spots and get him but that might not be an option.

There are a couple of scenarios where we could move back and get him and I think both of those scenarios are likely to occur. Berry & Clausen both being there at 5 could allow us to trade back with Cleveland, who I think would like to have Berry and might be willing to trade up for him.

If he's not the guy we want, you take the trade EVEN if there is a slight loss of point value. The point value chart is overrated and not worth much more than the paper its printed on. For evidence of that, just look and see what happens when you go by it, like we must have last year when we didn't trade back and took TJ at 3. Its a reference/starting point. There is still a negotiation that has to take place. If pick 5 is worth 1700 and pick 7 is worth 1500, I don't think you should NOT make the trade just because you only can get a 4th & 5th in return (88+38.5=126.5). That 4th rounder could end up being your starting center for the next 10 years. Either way, don't reach on a player just because you can't get the appropriate value out of your pick. You especially don't fugg up royally and pay a kid way more than he's worth just because you are stuck and can't get "appropriate value" to trade down.

Draft goes as follows
1 STL Bradford
2 DET Suh
3 TAM McCoy
4 WAS Okung
5 CLE Berry (via trade)
6 SEA Trent Williams
7 KC...if Clausen is there and they aren't going to take him anyway, try to swing another trade with Buffalo. BUF takes Clausen
8 OAK Who the f@ck knows, probably someone like Jacoby Ford
9 KC Dan Williams

If we slid back 4 spots and only picked up two 4th round picks, I'd be happy because I believe Williams is the guy they'll pick either way.

In this scenario, I wouldn't be shocked if we called Buffalo and the following occured:
Pioli "Hey Chan, Jimmy is here and we've had a couple of calls about trading down but we wanted to talk to you first. Do you want him? The kid is going to be a stud you know."
Chan "Gee Scott you know I do and you kind of owe me one for having to work for that dickhead last year. How about our 1st, 4th & 5th?"
Pioli "Sounds good Chan, take good care of him, we debated about taking him ourselves but we really need to work on our defense."
Chan "Will do Scott, thanks a million. You're swell."

Chan immediately hangs up the phone and phones in the pick.
Roger Goodell "There has been a trade between Kansas City and Buffalo. With the 9th pick the Buffalo Bills select Dan Williams, Defensive Tackle"

Pioli "Chan you motherf@cker! What the hell?"
Chan "Scott you take good care of Jimmy, I hear he's going to be a stud"

There you have it Clausen fan's, the most likely scenario I can see us drafting Jimmy is because of a screw up.

Fish · 04-09-2010, 11:42 PM

I'd really like to see what Crennel does with Dorsey for a season before we consider trading him off. He might actually know how to use him...

lostcause · 04-10-2010, 02:36 AM

While I would have no problem addressing NT at 5... This argument resonates like: Julius Peppers wouldn't be Julius Peppers if he hadn't had Ryan Sims. Seriously, reread the OP, replace Williams with Sims and Peppers with Berry.

03-31-2010, 11:35 PM
jjchieffan Supporter Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Highlandville, MO Casino cash: $-57752	Interesting case to take Dan Williams The Chiefs Need Williams More Than They Need Berry Just the other day I told you I thought the Chiefs should take a long, hard look at drafting Dan Williams at the #5 spot. I have been thinking about it more and more and I am growing more and more convinced that acquiring Dan Williams is the most important move the Chiefs could make to improve their defense. Most people consider taking Dan Williams at #5 a drastic reach. They shouldn’t. It is an outdated idea. Nose tackle in the 3-4 defense is without a doubt the single most important position. A team has no business running the 3-4 without a proper nose. When you decide to go with 3 lineman instead of 4, you are asking that big fella in the middle to do the job of two men so that your defense has the advantage of having 3 linebackers instead of 4. The linebackers in a 3-4 can see the field better and have a little bit more time to react. The 3-4 also gives the defense the advantage of choosing who the 4th rusher is going to be on any given play. It puts the offense at a disadvantage because they can’t be sure of where that 4th rusher is going to come from. The Chiefs ran the 3-4 last year without a real nose tackle in Ron Edwards. He plays hard but he isn’t even that good of a 4-3 guard, let alone a 3-4 nose. He had only 26 tackles last year. He also had difficulty eating up blockers. When the nose tackle fails to eat up blockers, they get to the second level and swallow up the linebackers and safeties who are rushing in to help. If you watched the Chiefs play last year you saw Williams and Mays constantly getting blocked before they could get to the ball carrier, thus springing running backs for huge gains. Every good NT that might have hit free agency was either franchised or re-signed this offseason. The Patriots opened up the wallet, something they hardly ever do, to pay Vince Wilfork. Teams are switching to the 3-4 so rapidly these days that pretty soon the trendy thing to do will be to switch to the 4-3. The overwhelming number of teams moving to the 3-4 means that quality players that fit the scheme are going to be harder and harder to come by. In years past, teams could wait until the 2nd or even 3rd round to find their nose tackle because not very many teams were running a 3-4. That is not the case now. It is time for the NFL and draft experts alike, to stop undervaluing the nose tackle as a potential top 10 pick. Without him, the linebackers and safeties can not do their jobs. Eric Berry, the player many Chiefs fans want the team to go after this year, may not be so high on the draft boards if it was not for his teammate, Dan Williams. The following is from Toolbox.com: One of the more experienced players in this year’s draft class, Williams has wrapped up an impressive career at Tennessee and is more than ready to take his game to the next level. The defensive tackle redshirted in Knoxville in 2005 and he was basically a full-time starter ever since the beginning of his sophomore campaign in 2007. Although he was often overshadowed on a defense led by star safety Eric Berry, Williams was arguably the glue to the Volunteer defense over the past several years. He recorded 40 tackles and two sacks as a sophomore and as a junior he was third on the team in tackles for loss and second in quarterback hurries, while making 48 total tackles. As a senior, Williams ranked first on the team with nine tackles for loss and nine quarterback hurries. He recorded 70 total tackles (36 solo), 2.5 sacks, and one fumble recovery. In addition to racking up his own stats, Williams wreaks havoc in the middle of the line to open things up for guys like Berry, linebacker Rico McCoy, and defensive end Chris Walker. “His numbers don’t necessarily show it as far as sacks, but he’s been a force in the middle,” said former head coach Lane Kiffin during the 2009 season. Added McCoy: “I wouldn’t have as many tackles without playing behind Dan. Dan’s taking up a block or two every play, because he demands that attention.” I am not giving Dan Williams all the credit for Eric Berry being Eric Berry. By all accounts, Eric Berry is a special player and could be great. If the Chiefs draft him, I would be absolutely thrilled but I will still be very concerned about the defense if they fail to add a good nose tackle. No matter how good Berry is, he won’t be able to make the defensive line penetrate the backfield and he won’t be able to make plays if he is running into blockers before he can get to the ball carrier. If it is ok to take a LT to protect your QB in the top 5 then taking the best player at the position that is the entire key to your defensive success should be as well. There are 3 good prospects in this draft at NT and they are Dan Williams, Terrance Cody and Cam Thomas. I would say there is an almost 100% chance both Williams and Cody will be gone before the 2nd round begins and probably a 85% chance Thomas is gone before the Chiefs use their first 2nd round pick. After Thomas there is a significant drop off in talent at the position. Romeo Crennel attended Dan’s Pro Day himself and Pioli proved last season when he took Tyson Jackson that he isn’t afraid to take the best player available at a position if he thinks it will help his team. Don’t be surprised if the Chiefs take Williams early. I would rather have the Chiefs “reach” for the best guy at his position than have them roll the dice that they might be able to turn some 4th or 5th round pick into the most important player on their defense. Berry would be great but the Chiefs can probably get a very good safety in the 2nd round. I can’t say the same for nose tackle. Moreover, a 2nd round safety may even exceed expectations if big Dan Williams is up front wearing Red and Gold, swallowing up blockers, stuffing the run and opening up holes for the defenders. Think of it like this. Which would you rather have? A great safety playing below his potential because of bad defense in front of him or a good safety playing great because of his teammates in front of him are great as well? I’ll go with #2 every time. http://arrowheadaddict.com/2010/03/3...ey-need-berry/
Posts: 13,346

04-01-2010, 02:20 PM	#31
The Franchise Most Valuable Villain Join Date: Dec 2006 Casino cash: $2065047	The way it's looking right now.......I'm going to guess it falls like this. Rams - Sam Bradford Lions - Ndamkong Suh Bucs - Gerald McCoy Redskins - Jimmy Clausen Chiefs - Eric Berry Seahawks - Russell Okung Browns - Joe Haden Raiders - Anthony Davis
Posts: 92,316

04-01-2010, 07:30 PM	#38
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $860478	Ron Edwards as a RDE. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 297,236

04-01-2010, 07:45 PM	#40
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-652950	Ron Edwards ****ing sucks...the fact that he's even on the team is a joke.
Posts: 115,346

04-09-2010, 11:42 PM	#44
Fish Ain't no relax! Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $-1381081	I'd really like to see what Crennel does with Dorsey for a season before we consider trading him off. He might actually know how to use him... __________________
Posts: 48,846

04-10-2010, 02:36 AM	#45
lostcause Veteran Join Date: Apr 2009 Casino cash: $9609965	While I would have no problem addressing NT at 5... This argument resonates like: Julius Peppers wouldn't be Julius Peppers if he hadn't had Ryan Sims. Seriously, reread the OP, replace Williams with Sims and Peppers with Berry.
Posts: 4,759