Pearl Harbor Day

[cabletech94]

Didn't feel like saying "happy" in the title. But i do believe that this day in history had a major affect on our lives.


Both my grandpa's served in wwII, so i guess i'm a little partial to those who serve.
Good day.

[tooge]

I thought it was in september. George Bush told me.

[listopencil]

Originally Posted by whoman69

My father was in an anti-tank unit with the 8th Army towards the end of the war in the Ruhr pocket. He was hit on his 19th birthday. When the war ended he was in San Francisco most likely as part of a planned invasion force of the main Japanese islands. The atomic bomb saved his life and the lives of millions of Japanese and hundreds of thousands of American serviceman's lives no matter how the revisionist historians paint it.

^

[listopencil]

My great uncle was supposed to be there but his paperwork got messed up. He ended up having to wait around for it, and would have died otherwise.

[Rain Man]

I'm going to go against the grain here.

I'm tired of the Pearl Harbor celebrations every year. Sure, I appreciate what happened. It was a pivotal moment in world history. But every year the people that were there got trotted out and held in the sun for a moment and they tell their stories, and then 365 days later it happens again.

Let's hold off on Pearl Harbor some year and do a Bataan remembrance. Or a Guadalcanal remembrance. Or a Peliliu remembrance. Or Tarawa. Or Attu. Let's give a little credit to the people who were in other places at other times, and not continue to give all of the glorification and attention to the same people every year.

Okay, you can kick me out of the country now, but I had to say it.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I'm going to go against the grain here.

I'm tired of the Pearl Harbor celebrations every year. Sure, I appreciate what happened. It was a pivotal moment in world history. But every year the people that were there got trotted out and held in the sun for a moment and they tell their stories, and then 365 days later it happens again.

Let's hold off on Pearl Harbor some year and do a Bataan remembrance. Or a Guadalcanal remembrance. Or a Peliliu remembrance. Or Tarawa. Or Attu. Let's give a little credit to the people who were in other places at other times, and not continue to give all of the glorification and attention to the same people every year.

Okay, you can kick me out of the country now, but I had to say it.

It's a fair point. There are many other events that should be remembered and celebrated that aren't. But human nature isn't to do that, it's to key in on very specific events to the exclusion of others that may well have been just as important, but for whatever reason don't stick in the public's mind.

Sneak attack on our main base? That sticks.

Random atoll nobody has ever heard of and would have no hope of finding on a map to save their lives? Not so much.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

It's a fair point. There are many other events that should be remembered and celebrated that aren't. But human nature isn't to do that, it's to key in on very specific events to the exclusion of others that may well have been just as important, but for whatever reason don't stick in the public's mind.

Sneak attack on our main base? That sticks.

Random atoll nobody has ever heard of and would have no hope of finding on a map to save their lives? Not so much.

The interesting thing to me too - and not to take anything away from the people there - is that they essentially had greatness thrust upon them. They had no idea they were in danger. All of a sudden bullets were flying and they had no choice in the matter.

Now contrast that with a guy who's on a boat headed to Tarawa, knowing that he's got to wade ashore in front of an emplaced enemy that's expecting him. Whose actions are really more brave? And yet the guys wading ashore stand in the back of the room watching the Pearl Harbor anniversary every year, and the guys who invaded Sicily or Attu or wherever stand in the back of the room watching the D-Day anniversary every year.

Obviously Pearl Harbor and D-Day people deserve significant recognition, but as a student of history I'd like to see other key events get recognition, and hear the stories of their people, too. As you said, though, they tend to get lost in the noise since they weren't the door openers.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by splatbass

Not cool. The Japanese have been our allies for decades. The survivors of Pearl Harbor have gotten together with the Japanese survivors from that day several times in the past. If they can forgive so can you.

The Japanese paid for Pearl Harbor many times over. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are only the best known of it, at this point. Operationg Meetinghouse, March, 1945 is the most destructive air raid in history, resulting in a firestorm (estimated at 1,800 degrees F in some places) that destroyed 25% of Tokyo, one of the largest cities on earth, with an estimated 100,000 dead and over 250,000 buildings destroyed.

They ****ed us, and they got their ass beat. For 50 years they've been one of our staunchest allies. Pearl Harbor should be commemorated for the lives lost, and the war begun, but not to revisit ancient wrongs long ago repaid with heavy interest.

[demonhero]

Fuk the Japs, and fuk the idiots that went over there this year for their remembrance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

The interesting thing to me too - and not to take anything away from the people there - is that they essentially had greatness thrust upon them. They had no idea they were in danger. All of a sudden bullets were flying and they had no choice in the matter.

Now contrast that with a guy who's on a boat headed to Tarawa, knowing that he's got to wade ashore in front of an emplaced enemy that's expecting him. Whose actions are really more brave? And yet the guys wading ashore stand in the back of the room watching the Pearl Harbor anniversary every year, and the guys who invaded Sicily or Attu or wherever stand in the back of the room watching the D-Day anniversary every year.

Obviously Pearl Harbor and D-Day people deserve significant recognition, but as a student of history I'd like to see other key events get recognition, and hear the stories of their people, too. As you said, though, they tend to get lost in the noise since they weren't the door openers.

I agree with every word. In many ways true heroism comes long before the event. Boarding the landing craft that will hit the beach early. Getting on board the plane and crawling into your position as tail gunner of a B-17, knowing that your chances of survival are not that great, and completely out of your control.

Bravery isn't not being scared. Bravery is doing what you should despite being scared. Despite every natural instinct in your body screaming at you NOT to do it.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by demonhero

Fuk the Japs, and fuk the idiots that went over there this year for their remembrance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Somewhere in Japan is an idiot who says the same about Americans for dropping nuclear bombs on women and children.

Get over it.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The Japanese paid for Pearl Harbor many times over. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are only the best known of it, at this point. Operationg Meetinghouse, March, 1945 is the most destructive air raid in history, resulting in a firestorm (estimated at 1,800 degrees F in some places) that destroyed 25% of Tokyo, one of the largest cities on earth, with an estimated 100,000 dead and over 250,000 buildings destroyed.

They ****ed us, and they got their ass beat. For 50 years they've been one of our staunchest allies. Pearl Harbor should be commemorated for the lives lost, and the war begun, but not to revisit ancient wrongs long ago repaid with heavy interest.

I'm really curious how they and Germany (and Italy) really seemed to switch sides quickly and become allies. I have no faith that Iraq and Afghanistan will do the same. Is there something about the more civilized countries where they're better able to see the light than are third world countries? Is it a Middle Eastern or Islamic thing where those countries are incapable of change?

Even Vietnam now seems to be friendly, which intrigues me. It would seem like they have all the reason in the world to hold a grudge - and us with them in return - but 25 years after the war I can go on vacation there. So it's not necessarily a third world thing.

[trndobrd]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I'm really curious how they and Germany (and Italy) really seemed to switch sides quickly and become allies. I have no faith that Iraq and Afghanistan will do the same. Is there something about the more civilized countries where they're better able to see the light than are third world countries? Is it a Middle Eastern or Islamic thing where those countries are incapable of change?

Even Vietnam now seems to be friendly, which intrigues me. It would seem like they have all the reason in the world to hold a grudge - and us with them in return - but 25 years after the war I can go on vacation there. So it's not necessarily a third world thing.

Both Germany and Japan were left with the option of getting on board with the American team, or cuddling up with Uncle Joe Stalin. Beyond that, both had strong governmental infrastructure which the US largely left in place at the local level, nor were the allies shy about being an occupiers.

Vietnam needs someplace to sell shirts and soccer balls. Nike won the war.

[Otter]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I'm really curious how they and Germany (and Italy) really seemed to switch sides quickly and become allies. I have no faith that Iraq and Afghanistan will do the same. Is there something about the more civilized countries where they're better able to see the light than are third world countries? Is it a Middle Eastern or Islamic thing where those countries are incapable of change?

Even Vietnam now seems to be friendly, which intrigues me. It would seem like they have all the reason in the world to hold a grudge - and us with them in return - but 25 years after the war I can go on vacation there. So it's not necessarily a third world thing.

I remember reading/hearing/talking (honestly don't remember) about an American returning from Vietnam recently and he asked some of the locals why they have little or no animosity towards America and his answer was along the lines of "don't flatter yourself".

I'm pretty sure our war was much more significant to America than it was to Vietnam in the big picture:

De Tham Guerrilla Resistance--1883-1913 --De Tham, a Vietnamese resistance leader, led a thirty-year guerrilla campaign against the colonial French occupiers in the mountains near Yen The in northeastern Tonkin. In 1909 the French launched a major offensive against his forces. De Tham was involved in the 1908 Hanoi Uprising.

This guerrilla resistance ended with De Tham's assassination in 1913.

Hanoi Uprising --June 1908--"Abortive" uprising led to French execution of thirteen rebels and hundreds of arrests.

Vietnamese Troop Mutiny--1916-- 16 year-old Vietnamese King Duy Tan took part in revolt and was exiled to the French island of Reunion. In their policy of colonial control, the French allowed the Vietnamese monarchy to exist as a puppet government. As with most colonial empires, the French recruited local forces to aid them. In this case, the Vietnamese troops mutinied against their rulers.

Thai Nguyen Uprising--1917--As in the previous year's mutiny, Vietnamese troops rebelled in the province of Thai Nguyen and held the town of Thai Nguyen for several day before the French put down the rebellion and recaptured the town.

The Nghe-Tinh Revolt--1930-1931--A peasant revolt with backing and support from the underground Vietnamese Communist Party. French forces suppressed the local soviets (A soviet is a council of peasants, workers or soldiers in a socialist or revolutionary form of government) which formed in local villages. Many of these revolutionaries were arrested and at least 80 were executed by the colonial government. (External link on this war.)

Yen Bai uprising--Feb. 9, 1930 A rebellion launched by the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang, (VNQDD -- Vietnamese Nationalist Party--See external link) began as a planned mutiny of Vietnamese troops in the Yen and Bai garrison. Other attacks on Son Tay and Lam Thu failed. The French suppressed the uprising, arresting executing many VNQDD leaders. Several villages were bombed and shelled by French forces. (External link)

World War II--During the Second World War, while France was defeated and partially occupied by Germany in 1940, both Japan and her ally Thailand initiated border conflicts with the French colonial forces in Vietnam and Indochina.

Franco-Japanese Border War (Sept. 22, 1940-Sept. 24, 1940)--Soon after France fell to Germany, Japan sought passage through French Indochina in order to attack Nationalist Chinese forces near the border. French authorities in Hanoi refused, prompting Japan to launch a ground attack on the French border forts at Long-Son and Dong-Dang. Two days later, Japanese aircraft bombed the port city of Haiphong and the Japanese navy landed troops at the port. During the two days of fighting, nearly 800 French troops were killed.

Franco-Thai Border War (Jan. 9, 1941-Jan. 28, 1941)--Thailand, then an ally of Japan, initiated an invasion of French Indochina after early border skirmishes from November 1940. After early successes, the Thai forces were forced back by French reinforcements. At sea, the French navy, in the form of one cruiser, wiped out nearly one third of the Thai navy off the island of Kho Chang on Jan. 17. Japan arranged a cease-fire on Jan. 28. Per a written agreement signed on March 11, France gave portions of Laos and Cambodia to Thailand. (External link on this war.)

Viet Minh Resistance to Japanese Occupation (1944-1945)-- In late 1944, the Vietnamese Communists, led by Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap, initiated a resistance movement against the Japanese. The Viet Minh (Vietnamese abbreviation for " League of the Revolution and Independence of Vietnam") sought independence from both Japan and France.

First Indochina War--1945-1954--Vietminh guerrilla war against the French culminating in the Viet Minh victory at Dien Bien Phu.

Binh Xuyen Suppression --April, 1955--The South Vietnam government of Ngo Dinh Diem used military action to eliminate the paramilitary power of the Binh Xuyen criminal organization.

Hoa Hao Suppression --June, 1955--The South Vietnam government of Ngo Dinh Diem used military action to eliminate the paramilitary power of the Hoa Hao religious sect in the countryside around Saigon. (External link on the Hoa Hao religion. Includes articles on religious persecution in Vietnam today.)

Cao Dai Suppression --1955--The South Vietnam government of Ngo Dinh Diem used military action to eliminate the paramilitary power of the Cao Dai religious sect.

North Vietnamese Peasant Uprisings of 1956--A peasant uprising in opposition to the Communist government's policy of forcing the rural population into collective farms. The government put down the revolt.

Second Indochina War--1956-1975--The so-called "Vietnam War" was really a regional and international conflict involving not just North and South Vietnam and the U.S. but also embroiling Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand. Below are some of the "smaller" conflicts that in part made up the Second Indochina War.

The American-Vietnamese War-- 1956-1975--The Communist North Vietnamese and the southern Viet Cong engaged in a long war to overthrow the pro-American government of South Vietnam. The U.S. and other allied nations sent troops to aid the Saigon regime. The last U.S. combat troops left in 1973 and Saigon fell to the North Vietnamese on April 30, 1975. Known in the U.S. and much of the world as "The Vietnam War." Known in Vietnam as "The American War."

Anti-Diem Coup Attempt-- Nov. 11-Nov. 13, 1960--Bloody coup attempt against South Vietnam's leader, Diem. Over 300 killed or wounded. Diem would later be overthrown and murdered in late 1963.

Laotian Civil War-- 1959-1975--North Vietnam sent large numbers of troops into Laos to aid the Communist Pathet Lao against the U.S.-backed Royal Laotian government. The Pathet Lao seized power in 1975 and maintains a good relationship with Hanoi.

Cambodian Civil War-- 1967-1975--North Vietnam sent large numbers of troops into Cambodia to aid the Communist Khmer Rouge against the U.S.-backed Cambodian government. The North Vietnamese Army (NVA) had maintained a large presence in eastern Cambodia for years prior to the beginning of the Khmer Rouge war in 1967. Following the fall of the U.S.-backed governments in Cambodia and South Vietnam, the two former Communist allies engaged in warfare between themselves. (See below).

Post-Unification Southern Resistance -- 1975-mid-1980's -- Armed resistance by several groups against the Communist Hanoi government following the fall of Saigon in 1975. These groups include: the Montagnard ethnic group in the Central Highlands; the Cao Dai and Hoa Hao religious groups (who reportedly ceased fighting in the mid-1980's); and various anti-communist groups collectively known as chu quoc or "national salvation." The chu quoc included the Dai Viet and the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang, two armed nationalist (and therefore anti-communist) organizations and soldiers from the old South Vietnamese Army (ARVN). Further research is needed to determine when the resistance ended.

Hmong Rebellion in Laos--1975-Present--Armed resistance by the Hmong ethnic group against the Communist Pathet Lao government is really just a continuation of the fighting between the Pathet Lao and the Hmong, who were armed and supported by the United States in the Laotian Civil War. The Hmong claim that the Vietnamese army is fighting them in support of the Laotian government.

Third Indochina War--1977-1991--The Third Indochina War began with the conflict between the Khmer Rouge government of Cambodia and the Communist government of a united Vietnam. Partially as a result of Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia (a Chinese ally) in late December of 1978, China launched what it described as a "punitive" attack on northern Vietnam. This 29-day war ended with the bloodied Chinese army declaring victory and returning home.

Cambodia-Vietnamese War--1977-1991--During their war against the U.S.-sponsored regimes in Saigon and Phnom Penh, the North Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge were able to mask their ideological differences and ignore the historical hostility between their two peoples. After taking power though, these differences turned violent. Beginning with low-level cross-border raids and escalating into full-fledged war in late December of 1978 when Vietnam launched a massive conventional invasion of Cambodia, swiftly occupying the nation within days. Vietnam set up a new government in Phnom Penh with Khmer Rouge defectors but found itself immersed in a long and difficult war of occupation as the Khmer Rouge returned to the guerrilla warfare they knew so well. Vietnamese troops left after more than a decade, with the friendly government of Heng Samrin in control of most of Cambodia.

Sino-Vietnam War--Feb. 17-Mar. 16, 1979-- Similar to the difficulties between Cambodia and Vietnam, the Hanoi regime enjoyed good relations with China during the war against the United States and South Vietnam, but once that conflict ended, ideological and historical differences interfered with Sino-Vietnamese relations. Using the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia as a pretext, China launched a massive attack along their common border. Vietnam's border troops put up a very good defense, causing major casualties to the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA). Within a month of the invasion, China basically declared that it had taught Hanoi a lesson and withdrew. Results of this war include: moving Hanoi closer to the Soviet Union, which was a rival of China; a modernization of the PLA as China realized they did not do very well against a smaller country; and the beginning of a long-lasting but low-level border conflict with between Vietnam and China. (See below).

Sino-Vietnam Border Conflict--1980-1987?-- After the Chinese invasion of Vietnam in 1979, continued warfare and infiltration along the border kept these two neighbors in a state of low-level warfare. The two Communist neighbors now maintain cordial relations, but further research is needed to ascertain when the cross-border raids and artillery exchanges ended.

Thai-Vietnam Border Conflict--1980-1987?--Following the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia, Vietnamese forces often crossed over from Cambodia into Thailand in operations against Cambodian guerrilla forces. This led to several battles with the Thai military.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by trndobrd

Both Germany and Japan were left with the option of getting on board with the American team, or cuddling up with Uncle Joe Stalin. Beyond that, both had strong governmental infrastructure which the US largely left in place at the local level, nor were the allies shy about being an occupiers.

Vietnam needs someplace to sell shirts and soccer balls. Nike won the war.

A huge point you are missing is that these three countries did not tremendous religious/ethnic hatreds internally. They were largely homogenous and therefore the chances of internal strife greatly minimized.

The country of Iraq is just a series of lines drawn on a map in the 20s in England. Since then, it has had nothing holding it together except authoritarian rule. Tremendously fertile ground for ethnic/religious strife. Afghanistan is an area dominated by tribal rivalries.

[Rasputin]

Them damn Germans