How many times has the #1 offense in the league not made the playoffs?

[FringeNC]

I bet it isn't very often, if ever. And last year, the D was so bad, we couldn't even finish .500.

Many of you guys do no understand the monumental failure of Gun's 2nd time around here. We did not ask him to give us a great D. All we asked was a good enough D to allow our O to take control of games. He failed completely.

I bet there has never in the history been a team that has led the league in offense two years in a row, and not made the playoffs either year. Not only has Gun been bad, he has set historical precedent. He even outdid Robinson. Robinson's 2002 year was the only year we had this type of O and didn't make the playoffs.

And the amazing thing about it? Most Chiefs' fans want him retained, and the GM will probably do it. No wonder this team has not been to the SB in ages...

[FringeNC]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

FYI, Robinson never finished better than 22 in total defense, actually his last 2 years he finished 32nd and 29th.....and you say he did better with the same players....last time I checked 16 was a lower number than those 2 and I believe lower is better in regards to what we are talking about.

Gun has more to work with now than Robinson ever did. When they had the same squad, Gun gave up a almost a TD per game more than Robinson did. Why is that an unfair comparison?

[tk13]

Originally Posted by ZachKC

Ehh our defense has a ways to go but it made some things happen last year...strong against the rush...made big plays...forced turnovers...

They were just very inconsistant....

I question if anyone who thinks they did not get better compared to Robinson's was watching the games this year...

I can think of a number of times where the defense NEEDED to stand up and stop a team in order to preserve a win this year and did.

I can't think of that happening in 2003.

I do think the defense is better than 2003. I think if nothing else we're more physical, which is a good thing. That 2003 D did have some stops though.. we stopped the Broncos after Dante's return... I remember we forced the fumble that led to the win in Green Bay.. and of course that Oakland game we stopped them on the 1 yard line at the end. I think we're better though, but in the end we didn't get the job done, Gun didn't accomplish what he was brought here to do.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by FringeNC

Let me get this straight. You are suggesting that Guinta is the reason for the Chiefs' poor D? I guess Joyner is the reason we lost to Indy in the playoffs. If only Morton hadn't dropped those passes.....

Just observing a trend. When Guinta had to share co-coord w/John Bunting, the Rams were top 10. Bunting goes to NC and builds a powerhouse college D, Guinta helms a bottom feeder in StL the very next year. Guinta goes to KC and Lovie comes in, and the Rams are back on top and the Chiefs are at all time embarassing lows.

[ClevelandChief]

Originally Posted by FringeNC

Robinson had a nice run, too, during Denver's glory years. Does that make him a great coordinator, too?

The fact is when Robinson and Gun had the same players, Robinson's D had better stats, and way more turnovers. That is 16 games worth of data, and it is pretty clear from that data that Gun is a worse DC than Greg Robinson, who we all agree sucked.

You let him go on a spending spree, and he improves the D marginally? Well, BFD! Who wouldn't show improvement when two rookies of the year, and an all-Pro CB are signed?

Better stats?
Robinson 2001-2003
|---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL
CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD
296 491 3403 6.93 19 13 481 2140 4.45 15 5543
403 616 4396 7.14 27 18 431 2067 4.80 19 6463
333 565 3614 6.40 19 25 453 2344 5.17 18 5958

Gunther 2004-2005
312 522 4213 8.07 32 13 398 1834 4.61 18 6047
325 558 3679 6.59 25 16 383 1570 4.10 11 5249


Really how much better are they? How much does YPA really matter when your defenses are still giving up more yardage total?

And I keep seeing you say Gun came in with the same players G-rob left. So G-Rob left in 2003 with the 29th ranked D and Gun inherited those players and went to 32nd.....so you'd been fine with Gun if his D finished 28th in 2004? Your logic....well there isn't any.

Point being here you're bashing a good D coordinator, the same one who had the ball hawking, staunchiest run defenses from 95-98 because he was forced to use the talent he was left, and that's exactly what it was he was left a cesspool of players. I can't even really name one skill player on defense that deserves the title of "skill" player.

Like I said, you want to blame someone, blame CP and DV for neglecting the defense for the last 5 years, for thinking that all the defense had to do was go on the field and it wouldn't matter because the offense would score 45 points.

Don't blame the guy who they brought back in to try to fix their mess.

[FringeNC]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Just observing a trend. When Guinta had to share co-coord w/John Bunting, the Rams were top 10. Bunting goes to NC and builds a powerhouse D, Guinta helms a bottom feeder in StL the very next year. Guinta goes to KC and Lovie comes in, and the Rams are back on top and the Chiefs are at all time embarassing lows.

He's been fired. I'm glad. It doesn't let Gun off the hook for inheriting a terrible squad from Greg Robinson AND MAKING THEM WORSE.

[htismaqe]

Just give Gunther 10 more years, he'll get it done.

We're set.

[ClevelandChief]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsfan88

Eh, the Gunther-apologists will argue though this defense is "making progress".

At this rate, if Gunther stays, expect to have a playoff caliber defense by the year 2087

So then what you're saying is that you dont consider going from 32nd in defense to 16th in defense progress.

No offense but I'm guessing you haven't been around long, we're not defending some scrub D-Coordinator who has never done anything.

We're defending a guy that we know has a great defensive mind and who has showed it in the past when he was surrounded by more than 2 good players on defense.

Do me a favor all you people that want to blame Gunther for the defensive failure, name me 3 players on the defense that you would say played great this year.

I'll give you mine.

Allen
Surtain(no he didn't have INT's but that's the point of a shut down corner, very rarely was his reciever thrown to.)

And that's it.

You could put Mitchell in that list as he did do a good job his first season at MLB but I wouldn't put him in the great category.

I feel the losses, I hate being a fan of an underachieving team just like everyone else. But I will at least try to put the blame where it belongs and I'm sorry I can't blame the defense totally for us not making the playoffs. Last year I could have, this year I think the defense played well enough for the talent it fielded.

We need to start Carlos Hall opposite of Allen, get a big run stuffing tackle to complement Sims, Get rid of Bell and get a Safety that can run a 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds unlike the 2 we have now. And let Gun have a another year, if CP brings in talent and he still fails then you'll all be right.....my guess is that wouldn't happen. You can go back to his days as Raiders D coordinator and everything i'm saying even applies to then.

[FringeNC]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

Don't blame the guy who they brought back in to try to fix their mess.

The two most relevant years are 2003 - 2004. Nothing changed except coordinators. Our run D improved a little, but look what happened to our pass D and TOs. Robinson and Gun were equally bad.

We'll never see eye to eye on Gun. But how about this: we let GMs decide. If Gun really is improving this unit, he should be in demand if we hire Marinelli instead of Gun. If Gun is as good as you claim, he should have no problem getting another DC job. I don't think he will. In other words, I just don't think it is myself and Go Chiefs who thinks Gun is not a good coordinator.

[Calcountry]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

"Yeah, it took Lovie Smith years to turn around the Rams, didn't it? It took Mike Martz years on to turn around the Rams offense, too, didn't it?

It took years for Charlie Weis to turn around Notre Dame's offense, didn't it?"


Who gives a shit, not all men are created equal, nor do all men have the same talent to work with when they come into a job. Do you really think anyone at all could have turned this defense from last to top 10 in one year with the players currently on the field? If you really want to blame someone blame CP for not bringing enough talent onto the field.

Don't blame the same Coordinator that had our defense looking like a machine from 95-98 when he had the talent on the field.

Neither should the same Coordinator get all the props when he has two stud Defensive players to make plays for him.

I think GRob might have had a better defense if he would have been coaching DT and NS.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

So then what you're saying is that you dont consider going from 32nd in defense to 16th in defense progress.

No offense but I'm guessing you haven't been around long, we're not defending some scrub D-Coordinator who has never done anything.

We're defending a guy that we know has a great defensive mind and who has showed it in the past when he was surrounded by more than 2 good players on defense.

Do me a favor all you people that want to blame Gunther for the defensive failure, name me 3 players on the defense that you would say played great this year.

I'll give you mine.

Allen
Surtain(no he didn't have INT's but that's the point of a shut down corner, very rarely was his reciever thrown to.)

And that's it.

You could put Mitchell in that list as he did do a good job his first season at MLB but I wouldn't put him in the great category.

I feel the losses, I hate being a fan of an underachieving team just like everyone else. But I will at least try to put the blame where it belongs and I'm sorry I can't blame the defense totally for us not making the playoffs. Last year I could have, this year I think the defense played well enough for the talent it fielded.

We need to start Carlos Hall opposite of Allen, get a big run stuffing tackle to complement Sims, Get rid of Bell and get a Safety that can run a 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds unlike the 2 we have now. And let Gun have a another year, if CP brings in talent and he still fails then you'll all be right.....my guess is that wouldn't happen. You can go back to his days as Raiders D coordinator and everything i'm saying even applies to then.

This is my very favorite version of the "it's not Gunther, it's the players" excuse.

Let's see:

All we need to do is replace Kendrell Bell, Sammy Knight, and Junior Siavii, 3 guys that were HAND-PICKED BY GUNTHER.

[ClevelandChief]

Originally Posted by FringeNC

Robinson had a nice run, too, during Denver's glory years. Does that make him a great coordinator, too?

The fact is when Robinson and Gun had the same players, Robinson's D had better stats, and way more turnovers. That is 16 games worth of data, and it is pretty clear from that data that Gun is a worse DC than Greg Robinson, who we all agree sucked.

You let him go on a spending spree, and he improves the D marginally? Well, BFD! Who wouldn't show improvement when two rookies of the year, and an all-Pro CB are signed?

You're right he did have a nice run and Denver and no that doesn't make him a great coordintor, it does however prove my point.

What good is having 70 INT's a season, 3000 fumble recoveries and still be 29th in yards allowed?

And if you look up at the stats I posted the Yards per play only Gun's D's only averaged maybe giving up a little over a yard more per play.

In Denver he had talent, he did well. In KC he didn't have talent, he did Poor.

1995-1998 Gun had talent, he did well. 2004-2005 He didn't have talent, he did poor.

Belichek in Cleveland, Poor. Belichek in N.E. Genius.

It's a pattern, do you see it? When any coach is surrounded by talent they will excel.

Take Guns talent away he's just a good Defensive minded guy with nothing to work with. Take G-Rob's talent away, same thing.

My question to you is how can you blame Gun for the talent or lack thereof, that is on the field?

Because in the end that's what you are doing.

[Coogs]

Originally Posted by ClevelandChief

We need to start Carlos Hall opposite of Allen, get a big run stuffing tackle to complement Sims, Get rid of Bell and get a Safety that can run a 40 yard dash in under 5 seconds unlike the 2 we have now. And let Gun have a another year, if CP brings in talent and he still fails then you'll all be right.....my guess is that wouldn't happen. You can go back to his days as Raiders D coordinator and everything i'm saying even applies to then.

I thought Gun wanted Bell and Knight and Hall and Surtain. And that is who CP brought in. Actually gave Gun DJ to work with too. And we still sucked on D.

Say goodbye to Gun, and start the Edwards era with a new DC.

[htismaqe]

God-damned message board!

This is my very favorite version of the "it's not Gunther, it's the players" excuse.

Let's see:

All we need to do is replace Kendrell Bell, Sammy Knight, and Junior Siavii, 3 guys that were HAND-PICKED BY GUNTHER.

[htismaqe]

I just noticed this:

You can go back to his days as Raiders D coordinator and everything i'm saying even applies to then.

Somebody didn't do their research. Here's Gunther's entire career as a defensive coordinator:

Year - Points Allowed - Yards Allowed

Chiefs
2005 - 16th - 25th
2004 - 29th - 31st

Chiefs
1998 - 22nd - 9th
1997 - 1st - 15th
1996 - 11th - 17th
1955 - 1st - 4th

Raiders
1994 - 17th - 12th
1993 - 21st - 10th
1992 - 11th - 8th

Bears
1980 - 4th - 11th
1979 - 3rd - 6th

[tk13]

You read too quickly. That "Bears" is the California Golden Bears. He didn't come into the NFL until the early 80's as a D-line coach for the Colts. And he was demoted from DC to D-line coach with the Raiders in 94...