Tony Gonzalez opens up on Herm with both barrels - Page 4

Hammock Parties · 12-02-2007, 11:04 PM

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/387172.html

Chiefs can’t come back against Chargers
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

The Chiefs lost their ability to make enough plays to win close games some time ago. They ran out of explanations shortly afterward.

Now they’re just plain out of gas. They trailed by a mere touchdown for most of the second half of Sunday’s game against San Diego at Arrowhead Stadium, but they might have played until midnight without getting that elusive tying score.

So they wound up losing 24-10, and the defeat pushed the 4-8 Chiefs to the brink of extinction in what passes for a race in the AFC West. They’re officially done if they lose to the Broncos in Denver next week.

The Chiefs tried their usual formula — keep things close until the fourth quarter and make the plays to win it then. It worked for them earlier in the season but again failed on Sunday when they were shut out in the final quarter for the fourth straight game.

“I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with. I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team. That’s bull. Let’s just go out there and win a football game.

“Let’s get rid of that stress. I’m tired of it. I’m sitting on the sideline thinking, ‘Here we go again.’ You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.”

That crisis of confidence was evident Sunday. Their seven-point deficit for most of the second half felt to them like a lot more.

Things got so bad for the offense that its only touchdown was scored by defensive end Jared Allen, who played on the goal-line ostensibly for blocking purposes. And Allen had to make a great catch of Damon Huard’s fade pass to do it.

“When you’re desperate,” Edwards said, “you do desperate things.”

Edwards hasn’t been desperate enough to change his philosophy on how to win. He defended it again Sunday, saying it’s the only way the Chiefs have a chance.

“We made plays (to win some early-season games),” Edwards said, referring to wins over Minnesota, San Diego and Oakland, all games the Chiefs salvaged in the fourth quarter. “That’s how we won.

“We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things we’re stuck with because of how we have to play.

“That’s OK. You can still win games that way. We just can’t get behind like that because that just puts you in a bad, bad way.”

The burden of keeping the game close fell to the defense, which again caved in. LaDainian Tomlinson rushed for 117 yards and two touchdowns in the second half.

“We know they’re going to make plays, realistically,” Allen said. “But to (heck) with that. Our mind-set has to be that they won’t make any plays. When stuff like that becomes acceptable, and all of a sudden you find yourself saying, ‘Oh, here we go again,’ that’s when the same (stuff) happens. That’s what’s been happening.

“We need to change the mind-set around here. The mind-set has got to be that this is not acceptable to lose at home. It’s not acceptable to be 10-10 at halftime and lose 24-10.”

The marvel regarding the Chiefs is not the five-game losing streak, their longest since 2000, or the five Arrowhead losses, most since they also lost five in 2001.

It’s that with this team — even with its numerous and obvious flaws — they won four of five games earlier in the season.

“Even then, we had some issues,” guard Brian Waters said. “When you look at games like Chicago and Houston, we had a couple of opportunities to come back in those games as well.

“We’ve started slowly in some parts of the season and now we’re not finishing the way we were. Really, we’re just trying to find a complete game.”

Hammock Parties · 12-02-2007, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Yep also a couple of people on the radio today mentioned how they saw the Chiefs run the EXACT same pass play 4 times in the game. Now when AS was here heck he wouldn't run the exact same play in 4-5 games. This team and play calling is way to predictable.

You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.

But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!

Rasputin · 12-02-2007, 11:40 PM

For the record I am not a Herm hater nor am I a Herm lover. I want to see this team grow and prosper over the next few years and think that Herm can do a good job for us with the 08 draft picks and go from there. I think he can bring us tallent that will win us games, his coaching skills have a lot to be desired though.

It's hard to see any progress becouse Brodie didn't start soon enough in the season and we were stuck with Hutard today. Huard sucked the life out of this team and this season imo, I blame Carl Peterson for that.

I want to like Herm but am having a hard time doing so with all of the losses but I did see some good things with imagination of having JA catch a TD and trying a WR pass. This team needs to grow and show heart, that is what matters now.

The sad thing is outside of the QB situation the rest of the team is not progessing but degressing on both sides of the ball. This team is not getting better but worse. With only 4 games left is not enough time for Brodie to make that much differance but I can only hope with Brodie that things will start to improve and quickly.

I don't know what to think right now.

**dirk digler** · 12-02-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

I think they are mistaken to coddle Croyle so much. Definitely. They should let him do what Damon tried to do today.

But I don't buy at all that Herm hates passing and all that. He has a different tolerance for risk than most coaches. Too low for most of our tastes including mine. But why this comment and why today? He didn't kill us today.

Call out the linemen for looking like they've quit, call out Huard for not being able to hit a receiver in the numbers... put the blame where it belongs. JMO

I think like cdcox said it is just the cumulative effect of holding back the offense that they have 0 confidence right now.

Also I just don't believe Herm prepares this team good enough and it shows on game day.

siberian khatru · 12-02-2007, 11:42 PM

I know tk13 and a few others around here still believe. They're patient. They think if we give it another year or two, we'll see progress and things will turn around. We'll get a winning record, get a playoff game, earn playoff experience, build on that, take the next step, etc.

Who knows, maybe they're right.

But I just don't have any faith in a Carl organization anymore. And I mean than in a quasi-religious way -- I have lost my faith. Not my fanhood -- I still follow the team -- but I just can't give Carl and Co. the benefit of a doubt anymore.

I'll still be here, although I may be an emotional zombie through much of it. And if we do turn it around, tk13 and zouk and those guys can really rub it in and tell me they were right.

Godspeed to them. I just don't have the energy to take one more leap into the fire with Carl.

Zouk · 12-02-2007, 11:42 PM

This is ridiculous. The Chiefs did everything on offense today. They play actioned, they ran spread, they threw on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs. They tried to run a reverse pass. People on this board were posting in the 1st half that this was the kind of play calling they had been waiting for all year.

But the offensive line cannot win 1 on 1 blocking assignments. Period. It's proven over and over again. And if your O-line can't block, there's no sequence of play calls you can come up with over the course of 60 minutes to overcome getting your ass beat physically.

This team today was starting 3 offensive linemen, 1 blocking tight end, and 1 starting receiver who will be out of football next year. They are no longer NFL caliber.

Tony G is understandably frustrated by playing around incompetence. He fights and gives 100% all the time, and his tremendous efforts have been routinely turned to **** by the rest of the offense all year. All he said is that he doesn't want to continue to play this way and he doesn't think Herm wants to either. He's right. Which is why this offseason they will dump all the leftover relics of the Vermeil era that can't play anymore, and bring in replacements.

**doomy3** · 12-02-2007, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reerun_KC

Strange? I see where you are coming from...

But if that was the case, how come Herms teams go through this regularly and he cant keep a OC longer than 2 years?

What is the difference in our offense now, than the NYJ's offense during Herms tenure? According to my NYJ friends and games I have watched from Herms tenure there. It is the same exact offense.

The guy just refuses to change with the times, accepts zero responsibility for his team or coaching decisions, talks down to the media and fans, cant coach his self out of a wet paper sack. I just cant defend the moron.. No way no how... The guy has zero credibility and deserves no respect for throwing his team under the bus.

And how is that vaunted Jets' offense now that they finally got rid of Herm? Afterall, since he was the reason they didn't do much on O, they must have really turned it around now!

12-02-2007, 11:44 PM

I agree with everything Cochise said on this thread. How in the heck is what TG said "opening up with both barrels"? Dumb.

Eleazar · 12-02-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

I think like cdcox said it is just the cumulative effect of holding back the offense that they have 0 confidence right now.

Also I just don't believe Herm prepares this team good enough and it shows on game day.

I don't buy that confidence talk. If they didn't like the play calling, they should have sunk their teeth into this gameplan today.

They are just not good up front and it all starts up front. There's no combination of plays you can call with this QB and this offensive line that is going to equal a win most weeks.

Like someone else said, our linemen can't block one on one. Waters is the only guy on that line who is really someone you want to keep around.

It reminds me of Houston when they first came into the league. No offensive line equals 10 points a game.

**doomy3** · 12-02-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.
But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!

Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.

**dirk digler** · 12-02-2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

You know what's amazing? I can tell when we're going to run the ball 90 percent of the time based only on the formation and the pre-snap motion. It's incredible. Oh, and the Chiefs have been telegraphing the run by playing Sippio as a blocker for three weeks now. Also pathetic.

But we won't throw to Sippio. Oh no. Screw that!

You're observant I didn't even know Sippio was on the field.

They scaled back the O so much that it is way too predictable but that is what Herm wants to do and that is why I have 0 respect for him. He came to KC and said he wants a complete team but he has alienated half the team with his BS

Hammock Parties · 12-02-2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomy3

Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.

What? No, it does matter. When Sippio is on the field, the only thing we called today were running plays. That's horrible.

When did the Vermeil Chiefs do that? I can't recall to be honest with you. What player?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

You're observant I didn't even know Sippio was on the field.

Oh yeah, he's out there all the time. He loves to block, man! Herm's got him a blocking WR! WOO!

Reerun_KC · 12-02-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomy3

And how is that vaunted Jets' offense now that they finally got rid of Herm? Afterall, since he was the reason they didn't do much on O, they must have really turned it around now!

Probably the same place that Herm has taken that Vaunted O we used to have here in KC...

Misery loves company...

According to ESPN, we both suck!
AFC Rankings.
14 Kansas City
15 NY Jets

**doomy3** · 12-02-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

What? No, it does matter. When Sippio is on the field, the only thing we called today were running plays. That's horrible.

When did the Vermeil Chiefs do that? I can't recall to be honest with you. What player?

LJ. He came out of the game all the time when we were going to throw, and everyone knew it.

Hammock Parties · 12-02-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomy3

LJ. He came out of the game all the time when we were going to throw, and everyone knew it.

That's not true. Larry Johnson has pass blocked and caught tons of passes quite often in the past. Horrible example.

Reerun_KC · 12-02-2007, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomy3

Also a tactic used by "offensive genius" Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders while we were setting offensive records. That doesn't matter.

We had Sippio when DV and AS was here?

Strange?

12-02-2007, 11:04 PM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $990478	Tony Gonzalez opens up on Herm with both barrels http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/387172.html Chiefs can’t come back against Chargers By ADAM TEICHER The Kansas City Star The Chiefs lost their ability to make enough plays to win close games some time ago. They ran out of explanations shortly afterward. Now they’re just plain out of gas. They trailed by a mere touchdown for most of the second half of Sunday’s game against San Diego at Arrowhead Stadium, but they might have played until midnight without getting that elusive tying score. So they wound up losing 24-10, and the defeat pushed the 4-8 Chiefs to the brink of extinction in what passes for a race in the AFC West. They’re officially done if they lose to the Broncos in Denver next week. The Chiefs tried their usual formula — keep things close until the fourth quarter and make the plays to win it then. It worked for them earlier in the season but again failed on Sunday when they were shut out in the final quarter for the fourth straight game. “I’m tired of it and don’t want to play this style of football,” Chiefs tight end Tony Gonzalez said. “It’s not what I’m into. I don’t think Herm (Edwards) wants to. We want to win. Let’s get it over with. I don’t want to keep the game close until the second half because we’re a second-half team. That’s bull. Let’s just go out there and win a football game. “Let’s get rid of that stress. I’m tired of it. I’m sitting on the sideline thinking, ‘Here we go again.’ You can’t help but let those thoughts creep into your mind.” That crisis of confidence was evident Sunday. Their seven-point deficit for most of the second half felt to them like a lot more. Things got so bad for the offense that its only touchdown was scored by defensive end Jared Allen, who played on the goal-line ostensibly for blocking purposes. And Allen had to make a great catch of Damon Huard’s fade pass to do it. “When you’re desperate,” Edwards said, “you do desperate things.” Edwards hasn’t been desperate enough to change his philosophy on how to win. He defended it again Sunday, saying it’s the only way the Chiefs have a chance. “We made plays (to win some early-season games),” Edwards said, referring to wins over Minnesota, San Diego and Oakland, all games the Chiefs salvaged in the fourth quarter. “That’s how we won. “We have to play a certain way. We try to do that to protect the quarterback and make sure we can throw the ball. You have all of these fancy ideas there at the end and there are certain things we’re stuck with because of how we have to play. “That’s OK. You can still win games that way. We just can’t get behind like that because that just puts you in a bad, bad way.” The burden of keeping the game close fell to the defense, which again caved in. LaDainian Tomlinson rushed for 117 yards and two touchdowns in the second half. “We know they’re going to make plays, realistically,” Allen said. “But to (heck) with that. Our mind-set has to be that they won’t make any plays. When stuff like that becomes acceptable, and all of a sudden you find yourself saying, ‘Oh, here we go again,’ that’s when the same (stuff) happens. That’s what’s been happening. “We need to change the mind-set around here. The mind-set has got to be that this is not acceptable to lose at home. It’s not acceptable to be 10-10 at halftime and lose 24-10.” The marvel regarding the Chiefs is not the five-game losing streak, their longest since 2000, or the five Arrowhead losses, most since they also lost five in 2001. It’s that with this team — even with its numerous and obvious flaws — they won four of five games earlier in the season. “Even then, we had some issues,” guard Brian Waters said. “When you look at games like Chicago and Houston, we had a couple of opportunities to come back in those games as well. “We’ve started slowly in some parts of the season and now we’re not finishing the way we were. Really, we’re just trying to find a complete game.”
Posts: 296,830

12-02-2007, 11:40 PM	#47
Rasputin Tip of the hat LIV Champs Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: ks Casino cash: $225421	For the record I am not a Herm hater nor am I a Herm lover. I want to see this team grow and prosper over the next few years and think that Herm can do a good job for us with the 08 draft picks and go from there. I think he can bring us tallent that will win us games, his coaching skills have a lot to be desired though. It's hard to see any progress becouse Brodie didn't start soon enough in the season and we were stuck with Hutard today. Huard sucked the life out of this team and this season imo, I blame Carl Peterson for that. I want to like Herm but am having a hard time doing so with all of the losses but I did see some good things with imagination of having JA catch a TD and trying a WR pass. This team needs to grow and show heart, that is what matters now. The sad thing is outside of the QB situation the rest of the team is not progessing but degressing on both sides of the ball. This team is not getting better but worse. With only 4 games left is not enough time for Brodie to make that much differance but I can only hope with Brodie that things will start to improve and quickly. I don't know what to think right now.
Posts: 56,908

12-02-2007, 11:42 PM	#49
siberian khatru 21st Century Schizoid Fan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Gates of Delirium Casino cash: $-1175050	I know tk13 and a few others around here still believe. They're patient. They think if we give it another year or two, we'll see progress and things will turn around. We'll get a winning record, get a playoff game, earn playoff experience, build on that, take the next step, etc. Who knows, maybe they're right. But I just don't have any faith in a Carl organization anymore. And I mean than in a quasi-religious way -- I have lost my faith. Not my fanhood -- I still follow the team -- but I just can't give Carl and Co. the benefit of a doubt anymore. I'll still be here, although I may be an emotional zombie through much of it. And if we do turn it around, tk13 and zouk and those guys can really rub it in and tell me they were right. Godspeed to them. I just don't have the energy to take one more leap into the fire with Carl.
Posts: 71,864

12-02-2007, 11:42 PM	#50
Zouk Veteran Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DC Casino cash: $10004900	This is ridiculous. The Chiefs did everything on offense today. They play actioned, they ran spread, they threw on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs. They tried to run a reverse pass. People on this board were posting in the 1st half that this was the kind of play calling they had been waiting for all year. But the offensive line cannot win 1 on 1 blocking assignments. Period. It's proven over and over again. And if your O-line can't block, there's no sequence of play calls you can come up with over the course of 60 minutes to overcome getting your ass beat physically. This team today was starting 3 offensive linemen, 1 blocking tight end, and 1 starting receiver who will be out of football next year. They are no longer NFL caliber. Tony G is understandably frustrated by playing around incompetence. He fights and gives 100% all the time, and his tremendous efforts have been routinely turned to **** by the rest of the offense all year. All he said is that he doesn't want to continue to play this way and he doesn't think Herm wants to either. He's right. Which is why this offseason they will dump all the leftover relics of the Vermeil era that can't play anymore, and bring in replacements.
Posts: 1,454

12-02-2007, 11:44 PM	#52
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	I agree with everything Cochise said on this thread. How in the heck is what TG said "opening up with both barrels"? Dumb.
Posts: n/a

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