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Old 10-01-2013, 02:13 PM  
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US Government Shutdown: blame whoever spent all the money

This is a pretty hilarious recounting of how we got here from The Telegraph...

US Government Shutdown: don't blame the Republicans – blame whoever spent all the money

Okay, so let's get the mainstream media analysis of the looming shutdown out of the way first. The House Republicans are led by a moderate weakling (Boehner) who is being held hostage by a gaggle of Tea Party crazies determined to destroy a humanitarian law known as Obamacare that is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to rescue us from disease, poverty, global warming and Robin Thicke. Obama (Father of the Nation and possibly Jesus, but he's too humble to admit it) and the lions of the Senate are standing their ground.

And so the Federal Government faces catastrophe because a GOP alliance of cowards and loons won't see reason and bend to the public will as represented by the glorious Democrats. Prepare yourself for society to collapse as museum workers don't turn up for work in the morning…

The reality is that this crisis has been caused by two things: a) overspending and b) the Constitution of the United States. On the overspend, the US has reached this point of crisis because it has failed to curtail spending effectively – and it has failed to do that because Democrats have consistently refused to make genuinely tough choices (the dreaded sequester was, itself, a plan to delay making a plan that has now started catching up with the President who called for a sequester in the first place).

I could recite all those big debt numbers that run into hundreds of zeroes but for a simpler sense of the madness consider the spending spree that has been going on in just the past few days. In a dash to "use it or lose it", The Washington Post reports that,
This past week, the Department of Veterans Affairs bought $562,000 worth of artwork. In a single day, the Agriculture Department spent $144,000 on toner cartridges. And, in a single purchase, the Coast Guard spent $178,000 on “Cubicle Furniture Rehab.”
Why the heck does the Agriculture Department require so much toner? Is it 3-D printing wheat? And, while we're at it, if we're being told that the shutdown will only affect "non-essential personnel" doesn't that imply that the US government currently employs a lot of "non-essential" people? If so, why?

Now spending wouldn't be a political issue if one party controlled all three branches of government, but it does not. The American people voted in 2012 for divided government, giving the presidency and Senate to the Democrats and the House to the Republicans. Republicans in the House are thus not only constitutionally entitled to opposed Democrat spending plans like Obamacare but they actually have both a mandate and a democratic responsibility to do so – a responsibility to represent the will of the people, a majority of whom are against Obamacare. We call this the American Way. A lot of observers don't seem to understand it, which is depressing.

You might say that the American Way is the wrong way, that political partisanship is heading towards a shutdown and – who knows? – the End of the World? But that's not what history teaches us. The US government has shut down SEVENTEEN times in the past. When it did so in 1996, the economy chugged along nicely without that bit of federal assistance and the end result was welfare reform. This from Bloomberg is revealing:
A quick check of the performance of the S&P 500 stock index during previous shutdowns suggests that equity prices might actually benefit from a brief suspension of federal government activities.
What a surprise. Life with a little less government activity is just fine.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...all-the-money/
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Thanks. When you see him again, ask him how his cousin, the far more costly democrat alternative has been doing. Like I said, one party is much worse. You couldn't have provided a better example. And I'm certainly no supporter of the Bush prescription drug spending.

The only way anyone can even begin to compare Republican spending with democrat spending is if they argue that Republicans (minus the RonPauls) want to spend on a strong, effective military and democrats want to dismantle it so they can use all that money on ever bigger transfer programs.
The lesser of two evils is not good.

Bush should have said,"Pay for your own drugs.", but that would have pissed of the old voters because they are freeloaders just like 70% of the country.

Nobody does the right thing anymore.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:07 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Halfcan View Post
Come April the American people need to have a Shut Down- Every person that owes should file an extension and then another. This year I had to wait 5 weeks to get my refund-when I called they said they were waiting for people to pay before they could pay out refunds.

The Gov. is flat broke and should be completely overhauled.
This little scheme of yours makes absolutely no sense for very many reasons.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:12 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by notorious View Post
The lesser of two evils is not good.

Bush should have said,"Pay for your own drugs.", but that would have pissed of the old voters because they are freeloaders just like 70% of the country.

Nobody does the right thing anymore.
The lesser of two evils is lesser. One party is consistently far worse when it comes to spending.

But the real problem is that big spending is popular with the people. The reason Bush proposed a prescription drug program in the first place is that democrats were beginning to really gain traction with that issue. Bush proposed a more limited program (in terms of cost) with some degree of private enterprise and competition involved (think Obamacare versus full blown single payer) in order to defang the democrats while avoiding their more ambitious designs. Unfortunately, our real problem is an insatiable population who aren't interested in doing the right thing.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:57 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The lesser of two evils is lesser. One party is consistently far worse when it comes to spending.

But the real problem is that big spending is popular with the people. The reason Bush proposed a prescription drug program in the first place is that democrats were beginning to really gain traction with that issue. Bush proposed a more limited program (in terms of cost) with some degree of private enterprise and competition involved (think Obamacare versus full blown single payer) in order to defang the democrats while avoiding their more ambitious designs. Unfortunately, our real problem is an insatiable population who aren't interested in doing the right thing.
I am just fed up with it all. I want the feds to cover the absolute basics (defense, ATC, etc) and let the state and local governments handle things how they want.

People will move to areas in which they agree with the policies. If an area gets to Liberal, they will lose a lot of business tax income, and a too Conservative area would have their issues, too.

It will force local communities/states to compete with each other for residents and businesses.

At the very least a person could get away from the stuff they disagree with.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by notorious View Post
I am just fed up with it all. I want the feds to cover the absolute basics (defense, ATC, etc) and let the state and local governments handle things how they want.

People will move to areas in which they agree with the policies. If an area gets to Liberal, they will lose a lot of business tax income, and a too Conservative area would have their issues, too.

It will force local communities/states to compete with each other for residents and businesses.

At the very least a person could get away from the stuff they disagree with.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:18 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Halfcan View Post
Come April the American people need to have a Shut Down- Every person that owes should file an extension and then another. This year I had to wait 5 weeks to get my refund-when I called they said they were waiting for people to pay before they could pay out refunds.

The Gov. is flat broke and should be completely overhauled.
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
This little scheme of yours makes absolutely no sense for very many reasons.
Cosmo's right. The biggest reason it makes no sense is that no matter when you file, you still owe the tax on April 15. If you haven't paid by then, you'll be on the hook for penalties and interest. Filing isn't the trigger.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:19 PM   #37
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:30 AM   #38
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Your post had no details but just a general assertion that it did. I posted some detail as to why your comparison refers to a different time, with different tax levels, where govt spending isn't anywhere near it is now but in fact followed a period of massive govt cuts. It's not a valid comparison.

I'll bet you just loved all those population upheavals the Interstate resulted in too. You better not ever criticize certain presidents for moving Indians out.
You didn't post any details. You posted generalized B.S. with no specifics. Like this post. Saying tax levels were different isn't a detail. And your notion of spending levels is completely false.

I gave you a specific example of government spending stimulating the economy. 6 dollars earned for every dollar spent. Specific.

And again, you distract from that fact with nonsensical rants.

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Strawman. I don't think all govt is bad.
Oh yea? Then I'll ask again, How many economic bills have the Republican house introduced and voted on?

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
It is not an entity in the market place in the way you imply. It's an entity that governs...and our founding was based on a govt that governs less governs best. Govt greases the wheels with sound money, protecting property rights, enforcing contracts, punishing fraud and having some straightforward regulation but not excessive. Today, the infrastructure of the Interstate is actually crumbling thanks to govt management...'er mismanagement of funds.

You expect cradle to grave welfare benefits.You're just another conventional Marxist who thinks the private sector needs too much of it. When there is too much of it, then the private sector remains depressed and economic prosperity dies. There's numerous historical events that prove this...including at our own Plymouth Plantation.

BEP said Marxist! DRINK!

Are you calling Eisenhower a Marxists?
Perhaps you have a country that operates on your fringe views?

I cannot wait until the Republicans kick you nutballs out of the party.... again. Where is a William F Buckley when you him. Someone needs to get rid of you John Birch Society wannabes... again.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:33 AM   #39
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So loneiguana, are you saying it was due to govt created jobs at the time the Interstate was built? Many jobs would have eventually ended once it was done. That's not stimulus....that just siphons funds from the private sector creating the same thing.

Or if you mean beyond that then, why hasn't the Interstate prevented the depression we've been in? Yes, it is a depression. Calling it a recession is a euphemism as it's padded over with Fed stimulus using QE and printing money. A LOT of good that's been doing--even with an Interstate system.
If you are going to post stupid stuff, then I am.

Why didn't the bush tax cuts prevent the recession we are in?
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:35 AM   #40
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No. One side is much worse when it comes to frivolously spending money.
Yup. The Republicans.

Oh course, I have actually data, you just pull stuff out of your butt.

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Old 10-02-2013, 07:18 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You didn't post any details. You posted generalized B.S. with no specifics.
Nope! I gave some brief details. Afterall, you were hijacking. You were far more general making assertions. Furthermore, I covered some of what I said in an earlier post when you made the same claim only with a lot more specific details...say on the tax code.


Quote:
Like this post. Saying tax levels were different isn't a detail. And your notion of spending levels is completely false.
I covered this in detail in an earlier post when you made the same claim. I am not on my own computer to go spend time looking for those numbers again. You've just refuse to accept it and continue on with the same spin. Even the same pic. It's misleading.

Quote:
I gave you a specific example of government spending stimulating the economy. 6 dollars earned for every dollar spent. Specific.
It wasn't part of a stimulus plan for the economy. How many times do you have to be told this? I gave you specifics as to why. Ike wanted an interstate to move troops. Again, to say there would not have been economic growth or even an interstate without that is silly. Where is this growth and prosperity today with that same interstate? It's not what the problem is today--not even close.

Quote:
And again, you distract from that fact with nonsensical rants.
Pot calling kettle. You and one of your cut and paste jobs again making assertions that can be refuted.

Quote:
Oh yea? Then I'll ask again, How many economic bills have the Republican house introduced and voted on?
Irrelevant. Unless you're into needing big govt to even have an economy. You have a few Rs here that are into statism. So ask them.

Since you're into history, pc history that is which doesn't really count economic history in any detail, you might take a good look at a certain period during the Middle Ages.


Quote:
Are you calling Eisenhower a Marxists?
Is he more than one person?
Quote:
Perhaps you have a country that operates on your fringe views?
Nice logical fallacy there with the ad hominem. Your views were once considered fringe and still considered that by many. Deflect much? Or another pot calling kettle.You're the one for national health care and a living wage.

Furthermore, needing a country as an example is added and unecessary standard. It's an arbitrary.
But I gave you Hong Kong. It's a state. I said look at part of the Middle Ages when large central govts weren't around

I got news for you, YOU are the fringe in America. It's currently in power by lying it's way into it and passing ACA using fraud. Then beating up SC justices to intimidate them. Very commie-like (Alinskyish) in tactic. You want a living wage and increased min wage. Wage controls are a plank of Marxism.

Quote:
I cannot wait until the Republicans kick you nutballs out of the party.... again.
More ad hominem but thank you for conceding the argument. You had nothing but indoctrination to spew.

So being a free-market capitalist where the govt is mainly out of the way so the creativity of entrepreneurs and those who produce lead the way is now considered being a "nutball." I must admit the Marxists have done a very effective job at socializing you young folks.

Quote:
Where is a William F Buckley when you him. Someone needs to get rid of you John Birch Society wannabes... again.
Oh my, just like a commie you desire a purge of those who dissent from you. Even labeling them falsely as "nutballs." Off to Siberia! Especially those who argue and defend freedom through limited govt. You're true colors are showing now.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:16 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Nope! I gave some brief details. Afterall, you were hijacking. You were far more general making assertions. Furthermore, I covered some of what I said in an earlier post when you made the same claim only with a lot more specific details...say on the tax code.
No, saying it is different isn't being specific. I'd ask for you to explain the differences using actual tax data, but I know you are too lazy to do anything other then talking in generalities.

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I covered this in detail in an earlier post when you made the same claim. I am not on my own computer to go spend time looking for those numbers again. You've just refuse to accept it and continue on with the same spin. Even the same pic. It's misleading.
Here is BEP stating things as facts without backing them with with data. Shocking. You never refuted anything anyway.

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
It wasn't part of a stimulus plan for the economy. How many times do you have to be told this? I gave you specifics as to why. Ike wanted an interstate to move troops. Again, to say there would not have been economic growth or even an interstate without that is silly. Where is this growth and prosperity today with that same interstate? It's not what the problem is today--not even close.

Who is saying there wouldn't have been economic growth? But continue to distract from the main comment. Who said it was a plan to stimulate the economy?

It was government spending and investment that stimulated the economy. The reason for why the government spent the money doesn't change that fact.

Do you deny that the government spending money on infrastructure stimulated the economy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Pot calling kettle. You and one of your cut and paste jobs again making assertions that can be refuted.
Then refute that the government spending money on infrastructure didn't stimulate the economy by returning more money then spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Irrelevant. Unless you're into needing big govt to even have an economy. You have a few Rs here that are into statism. So ask them.

Since you're into history, pc history that is which doesn't really count economic history in any detail, you might take a good look at a certain period during the Middle Ages.
Yawn, more nonsensical trash in a attempt to distract that the Republican's in the house have not focused at all on improving the economy.

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Is he more than one person?
You didn't answer the question. Typical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Nice logical fallacy there with the ad hominem. Your views were once considered fringe and still considered that by many. Deflect much? Or another pot calling kettle.You're the one for national health care and a living wage.

Furthermore, needing a country as an example is added and unecessary standard. It's an arbitrary.
But I gave you Hong Kong. It's a state. I said look at part of the Middle Ages when large central govts weren't around
Hong Kong isn't an example, unless you think all countries can get their start from major investment of a World Empire.Do you really want to have the losing argument again?

And your middle Age comment is priceless and showing your stupidity. First, the middle ages aren't known as a time of great economic progress or growth. What are you holding up as an example? Serfdom? Might is Right? Being living and dying on the same piece of land? The lack of economic mobility?

Second I'd point out the Ottoman Empire, which was the only medieval government to survive to the 20th century and the nature of their central government.

Then I would invite you to check out who was financing the majority of the international trade that eventually did start to stimulate the economy. Who spent the money to protect and set up the trade routes?

Hint, England only became a world empire because its government invested heavily into its fleet that allowed them to control international trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I got news for you, YOU are the fringe in America. It's currently in power by lying it's way into it and passing ACA using fraud. Then beating up SC justices to intimidate them. Very commie-like (Alinskyish) in tactic. You want a living wage and increased min wage. Wage controls are a plank of Marxism.

Let me know when you guys win a national election again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
More ad hominem but thank you for conceding the argument. You had nothing but indoctrination to spew.

" I must admit the Marxists have done a very effective job at socializing you young folks.

Oh my, just like a commie you desire a purge of those who dissent from you. Even labeling them falsely as "nutballs." Off to Siberia! Especially those who argue and defend freedom through limited govt. You're true colors are showing now.
Aww, does poor little BEP not like being told the Republican Party has gone through this before and her fringe views lost?

Better get over it, because it will happen again.

It's not a purge, , its telling the stupidity in the party they aren't running the show any more, we got a country to govern.

But continue to think that any Country can be ran with your fringe views. Want me to post Chili lab experiment again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
So being a free-market capitalist where the govt is mainly out of the way so the creativity of entrepreneurs and those who produce lead the way is now considered being a "nutball.So being a free-market capitalist where the govt is mainly out of the way so the creativity of entrepreneurs and those who produce lead the way is now considered being a "nutball.
Government funds the majority of creativity and entrepreneurs. Here is another example of how wrong you are. Government spending stimulates the economy across all sectors because the government has a vested interest (more taxes) in a growing economy.

So yes, you are a nutball. Reality continue to disagree with you.

For real innovation, thank the state

Quote:
Apple is a perfect example. In its early stages, the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small-business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the Internet, GPS, touch-screen displays, and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency bankrolled the Internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the United States is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state.

The examples don't just come from the military arena, either. The U.S. National Institutes of Health spends about $30 billion every year on pharmaceutical and biotechnology research and is responsible for 75 percent of the most innovative new drugs annually. Even the algorithm behind Google benefited from U.S. National Science Foundation funding.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health...src=most_viral
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:32 AM   #43
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Not worth arguing too long with a Marxist who is economically clueless.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:51 AM   #44
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post


Not worth arguing too long with a Marxist who is economically clueless.
Like I called, you are too lazy to actually defend any of the B.S. you spew.

Of course, it helps that we both know you cannot back anything you say with any actual data.
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