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Old 12-12-2013, 11:04 AM  
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
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Understanding Poverty

20 things the poor deal with daily:

http://benirwin.wordpress.com/2013/1...-do-every-day/

Dave Ramsey probably wasn’t expecting this much pushback when he shared a piece by Tim Corley contrasting the habits of the rich with those of the poor. In her response on CNN, Rachel Held Evans noted that Ramsey and Corley mistake correlation for causality when they suggest (without actually proving) that these habits are the cause of a person’s financial situation. (Did it never occur to them that it might be the other way around?)

Ramsey fired back, calling the pushback “immature and ignorant.” This from a guy who just made 20 sweeping assertions about 47 million poor people in the US — all based on a survey of 361 individuals.

That’s right. To come up with his 20 habits, Corley talked to just 233 wealthy people and 128 poor people. Ramsey can talk all he wants about Corley’s research passing the “common-sense smell test,” but it doesn’t pass the “research methodology 101” test.

To balance the picture a bit, I wanted to take a fact-based look at 20 things the poor do on a daily basis…

1. Search for affordable housing.
Especially in urban areas, the waiting list for affordable housing can be a year or more. During that time, poor families either have to make do with substandard or dangerous housing, depend on the hospitality of relatives, or go homeless.
(Source: New York Times)

2. Try to make $133 worth of food last a whole month.
That’s how much the average food stamp recipient gets each month. Imagine trying to eat well on $4.38 per day. It’s not easy, which is why many impoverished families resort to #3…
(Source: Kaiser Family Foundation)

3. Subsist on poor quality food.
Not because they want to, but because they can’t afford high-quality, nutritious food. They’re trapped in a food system that subsidizes processed foods, making them artificially cheaper than natural food sources. So the poor are forced to eat bad food — if they’re lucky, that is…
(Sources: Washington Post; Journal of Nutrition, March 2008)

4. Skip a meal.
One in six Americans are food insecure. Which means (among other things) that they’re sometimes forced to go without eating.
(Sources: World Vision, US Department of Agriculture)

5. Work longer and harder than most of us.
While it’s popular to think people are poor because they’re lazy (which seems to be the whole point of Ramsey’s post), the poor actually work longer and harder than the rest of us. More than 80 percent of impoverished children have at least one parent who works; 60 percent have at least one parent who works full-time. Overall, the poor work longer hours than the so-called “job creators.”
(Source: Poverty and Learning, April 2008)

6. Go to bed 3 hours before their first job starts.
Number 15 on Ramsey and Corley’s list was, “44% of [the] wealthy wake up three hours before work starts vs. 3% of [the] poor.” It may be true that most poor people don’t wake up three hours before work starts. But that could be because they’re more likely to work multiple jobs, in which case job #1 means they’re probably just getting to bed three hours before job #2 starts.
(Source: Poverty and Learning, April 2008)

7. Try to avoid getting beat up by someone they love.
According to some estimates, half of all homeless women in America ran away to escape domestic violence.
(Source: National Coalition for the Homeless, 2009)

8. Put themselves in harm’s way, only to be kicked to the streets afterward.
How else do you explain 67,000 63,000 homeless veterans?
(Source: US Department of Veterans Affairs, updated to reflect the most recent data)

9. Pay more than their fair share of taxes.
Some conservative pundits and politicians like to think the poor don’t pay their fair share, that they are merely “takers.” While it’s true the poor don’t pay as much in federal income tax — usually because they don’t earn enough to qualify — they do pay sales tax, payroll tax, etc. In fact, the bottom 20% of earners pay TWICE as much in taxes (as a share of their income) as do the top 1%.
(Source: Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy, January 2013)

10. Fall further behind.
Even when poverty is the result of poor decision-making, often it’s someone else’s choices that make the difference. If you experience poverty as a child, you are 3-4 times less likely to graduate high school. If you spend your entire childhood in poverty, you are 5 times less likely to graduate. Which means your future has been all but decided for you.
(Sources: World Vision, Children’s Defense Fund, Annie E. Casey Foundation)

11. Raise kids who will be poor.
A child’s future earnings are closely correlated to their parents’ earnings. In other words, economic mobility — the idea that you can claw your way out of poverty if you just try hard enough is, more often than not, a myth.
(Sources: OECD, Economic Policy Institute)

12. Vote less.
And who can blame them? I would be less inclined to vote if I didn’t have easy access to the polls and if I were subjected to draconian voter ID laws that are sold to the public as necessary to suppress nonexistent voter fraud.
(Source: The Center for Voting and Democracy)

13. When they do vote… vote pretty much the same as the rest of us.
Following their defeat in 2012, conservatives took solace by reasoning that they’d lost to a bunch of “takers,” including the poor, who voted for Democrats because they want free handouts from big government. The reality is a bit more complex. Only a third of low-income voters identify as Democrats, about the same for all Americans, including wealthy voters.
(Sources: NPR, Pew Research Center)

14. Live with chronic pain.
Those earning less than $12,000 a year are twice as likely to report feeling physical pain on any given day.
(Source: Kaiser Health News)

15. Live shorter lives.
There is a 10-14 year gap in life expectancy between the rich and the poor. In recent years, poor people’s life expectancy has actually declined — in America, the wealthiest nation on the planet.
(Source: Health Affairs, 2012)

16. Use drugs and alcohol pretty much the same as (or less than) everyone else.
Despite the common picture of inner city crack houses, drug use is pretty evenly spread across income groups. And rich people actually abuse alcohol more than the poor.
(Source: Poverty and Learning, April 2008)

17. Receive less in subsidized benefits than corporations.
The US government spends around $60 billion on public housing and rental subsidies for low-income families, compared to more than $90 billion on corporate subsidies. Oil companies alone get around $70 billion. And that’s not counting the nearly $60 billion a year in tax breaks corporations enjoy by sheltering profits offshore. Or the $700 billion bailout banks got in 2008.
(Source: Think By Numbers)

18. Get themselves off welfare as soon as possible.
Despite the odds, the vast majority of beneficiaries leave the welfare rolls within five years. Even in the absence of official welfare-to-work programming, most welfare recipients enroll in some form of vocational training. Why? Because they’re desperate to get off welfare.
(Source: US Department of Health and Human Services)

19. Have about the same number of children as everyone else.
No, poor people do not have loads of children just so they can stay on welfare.
(Source: US Department of Health and Human Services)

20. Accomplish one single goal: stay alive.
Poverty in America may not be as dire as poverty in other parts of the world, but many working poor families are nonetheless preoccupied with day-to-day survival. For them, life is not something to be enjoyed so much as endured.

These are the real habits of the poor, those with whom Jesus identifies most closely.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:46 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Taxes do no get passed on to the consumer.
That's not entirely correct. It depends on the ability of the company to pass through the tax costs. For goods with high price elasticity, the company has very little ability to pass through tax costs. The converse is true for price inelasticity.

That being said, even with an ability to pass through tax costs onto a consumer, in the real world businesses are not able to pass through 100% of tax cost increases.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:47 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
So what constitutes this idea of reinvestment and how does that differ from deducting expenses and investments into capital items?
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Would your strategy allow the deduction to come from the tax or from the income side. In other words do you see this as a tax credit? Or a deduction?
heh, disHonest thinks he has a clue.

You still don't dumb****. Go sell some more thrifty paper ads.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:50 AM   #303
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Every tax is sacred.
Every tax is great.
If a tax is wasted,
Progs gets quite irate.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:51 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Race Card native View Post
That's not entirely correct. It depends on the ability of the company to pass through the tax costs. For goods with high price elasticity, the company has very little ability to pass through tax costs. The converse is true for price inelasticity.

That being said, even with an ability to pass through tax costs onto a consumer, in the real world businesses are not able to pass through 100% of tax cost increases.
It all depends on the market tolerance for the price. Will prices go up a nickle or a dime. Of course. Will any consumer even blink at a nickle increase. Of course not, things go up by nickles every day.

It also depends on competition. Because tax rates effect everyone, your competitions cost have increased as well. Therefore, if you raise prices, and your competition does not, well we know what capitalism says about that.

But we both know what they (conservatives) think will happen is multi-dollar increases, which is outside of market tolerance.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:54 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Would your strategy allow the deduction to come from the tax or from the income side. In other words do you see this as a tax credit? Or a deduction?
I'll only say this one more time.

You keep your income low by increasing your spending. To keep the wealth in your company, that spending is done on things that grow your company.

Because we have a progressive income tax, by lowering your income, you get placed in lower tax rates. Everyone from individuals to corporations know this.

So you spend on your business to create wealth and lower tax rates.

It has nothing to do with deductions.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:54 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
It all depends on the market tolerance for the price. Will prices go up a nickle or a dime. Of course. Will any consumer even blink at a nickle increase. Of course not, things go up by nickles every day.

It also depends on competition. Because tax rates effect everyone, your competitions cost have increased as well. Therefore, if you raise prices, and your competition does not, well we know what capitalism says about that.

But we both know what they (conservatives) think will happen is multi-dollar increases, which is outside of market tolerance.
The term is price elasticity or inelasticity.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:58 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Race Card native View Post
The term is price elasticity or inelasticity.
Yes, Yes, and if that doesn't get explained around here, the people who need to understand it the most, won't.

Just saying.

/i didn't disagree with you, just used more and smaller words to explain it
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:00 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I'll only say this one more time.

You keep your income low by increasing your spending. To keep the wealth in your company, that spending is done on things that grow your company.

Because we have a progressive income tax, by lowering your income, you get placed in lower tax rates. Everyone from individuals to corporations know this.

So you spend on your business to create wealth and lower tax rates.

It has nothing to do with deductions.

You are either terribly confused or you have no understanding of income, expenses, profits and loss and what constitutes taxable income vs gross income. Or you do not understand what the definition is of a deduction.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:09 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
You are either terribly confused or you have no understanding of income, expenses, profits and loss and what constitutes taxable income vs gross income. Or you do not understand what the definition is of a deduction.
Now you think you're an accountant. Tell me Mr Sales/Marketing aka Thrifty Nickel Ad salesperson, when did you become an expert on accounting?
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:22 AM   #310
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Geez, loneiguana sounds like he wants to nationalize all business now.
More govt taxes=more govt control=Mussolini-style economics
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:29 AM   #311
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I don't know what he wants really. He talks about things he cannot explain then leaves. He was basically advocating what we have now. Some convoluted thing about raising taxes that would stimulate business to spend more on expenses so they don't pay taxes….i think in the desire to increase tax revenue. Odd to say the least.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:04 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
I don't know what he wants really. He talks about things he cannot explain then leaves. He was basically advocating what we have now. Some convoluted thing about raising taxes that would stimulate business to spend more on expenses so they don't pay taxes….i think in the desire to increase tax revenue. Odd to say the least.
He's making a moral argument more than anything, imo.
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