Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Ed & Dave Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-16-2013, 03:34 PM  
mikey23545 mikey23545 is offline
MVP
 
mikey23545's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Casino cash: $5335
Oh Paaaaat -Judge says NSA spying ‘almost Orwellian,’ likely unconstitutional

In a stinging rebuke to President Barack Obama’s surveillance policies, a federal judge on Monday branded the National Security Agency’s mass collection of Americans’ telephone data “almost Orwellian” and likely a violation of the Constitution.

Appeals Court Judge Richard Leon invoked Founding Father James Madison and the Beatles in a frequently scathing ruling. Leon, appointed by then-President George W. Bush, ordered the government to halt bulk collection of so-called telephony metadata and destroy information already collected through that program. But he suspended his order as the case works its way through the courts.

“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘abitrary invasion’ than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Leon wrote.

The judge also dealt a blow to the government’s argument that such surveillance programs — a source of controversy ever since former NSA contractor Edward Snowden revealed their reach in a series of unauthorized disclosures — are necessary to thwarting terrorist plots.

“The Government does not cite a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature,” he wrote.

Leon said Founding Father James Madison would likely be “aghast” at the NSA’s activities — but also conjured up a Beatles-themed image to rebut the government’s suggestion that it does not collect Verizon metadata.

“To draw an analogy, if the NSA’s program operates the way the Government suggests it does, then omitting Verizon Wireless, AT&T, and Sprint from the collection would be like omitting John, Paul, and George from a historical analysis of the Beatles. A Ringo-only database doesn’t make any sense, and I cannot believe the Government would create, maintain, and so ardently defend such a system,” he wrote in footnote 36 on page 38.

Among Leon’s other flourishes, he warned that the so-called war on terrorism “realistically could be forever!” He expressed concerns about the “almost Orwellian technology that enables the Government to store and analyze the phone metadata of every telephone user in the United States.” And he said modern-day surveillance tactics would have been “the stuff of science fiction” at the time a precedent ruling was issued.

The White House had no immediate response to the ruling.
Posts: 11,955
mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.mikey23545 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 09:37 PM   #31
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
and I say that because they have been caught lying again and again, there is no rational basis to believe them unless they produce credible hard evidence. The fact that they have yet to do so leads one to believe that they haven't caught anybody or that the number of "terrorists" they have caught is exceedingly low.
No, it doesn't lead one to believe that. Not when an equally plausible explanation is that they don't want to diminish their capability by publicizing it's successes. Furthermore, we have a consensus from three branches of government, two Presidents, and members of both parties from Congress who have been aware of and supported this program over the years in the midst of a government that can't seem to agree on anything else.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 10:11 PM   #32
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
Veteran
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Casino cash: $5380
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, it doesn't lead one to believe that. Not when an equally plausible explanation is that they don't want to diminish their capability by publicizing it's successes. Furthermore, we have a consensus from three branches of government, two Presidents, and members of both parties from Congress who have been aware of and supported this program over the years in the midst of a government that can't seem to agree on anything else.
Since they have already destroyed their credibility they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Also, your reason for trusting them is that government agrees that government should have this power to spy on its own citizens? Really? Both parties and two presidents agreed that prohibition was a good thing. Doesn't mean it was. A president, Congress, and the supreme court agreed that internment camps for persons of Japanese heritage were a good thing. Doesn't mean it was good or constitutional.

Just because two parties agree doesn't mean it is good or constitutional. Usually when both parties agree, the citizenry is about to get screwed.
Posts: 1,435
GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.GloucesterChief would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 11:33 PM   #33
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Since they have already destroyed their credibility they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Also, your reason for trusting them is that government agrees that government should have this power to spy on its own citizens? Really? Both parties and two presidents agreed that prohibition was a good thing. Doesn't mean it was. A president, Congress, and the supreme court agreed that internment camps for persons of Japanese heritage were a good thing. Doesn't mean it was good or constitutional.

Just because two parties agree doesn't mean it is good or constitutional. Usually when both parties agree, the citizenry is about to get screwed.
This isn't about giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's about you saying something inaccurate. I corrected it.

I don't know whether any terrorists have been caught or not.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 01:36 AM   #34
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
MVP
 
Just Passin' By's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2009
Casino cash: $5700
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We don't know how many terrorists have been dealt with as a result of this data collection because the government isn't saying, according to that article.
After being caught lying about the numbers, they came down to this:

Quote:
On Wednesday, Inglis said that at most one plot might have been disrupted by the bulk phone records collection alone. "There is an example that comes close to a 'but for' example," Inglis said...

...Senators Wyden and Mark Udall, members of the intelligence committee, have repeatedly said that there is no evidence that the controversial bulk phone records collection has disrupted any terrorist plots.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-officials-nsa

Now, since the Frazod thread seems to be tailing off, I'm outta here.
Posts: 9,174
Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 07:15 AM   #35
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
After being caught lying about the numbers, they came down to this:



http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-officials-nsa

Now, since the Frazod thread seems to be tailing off, I'm outta here.
1. What numbers were they caught lying about?

2. "That's a very difficult question to answer," Inglis testified. "That's not how these programs work."

3. I approve of Congress continuing to monitor these programs and changing them or discontinuing them if they're not effective or if there's a better way to achieve the goal.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 11:32 AM   #36
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
MVP
 
Just Passin' By's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2009
Casino cash: $5700
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
1. What numbers were they caught lying about?

2. "That's a very difficult question to answer," Inglis testified. "That's not how these programs work."

3. I approve of Congress continuing to monitor these programs and changing them or discontinuing them if they're not effective or if there's a better way to achieve the goal.
1.) They were lying about plots being foiled. They were claiming 50. The real number was 0.

2.) You talked about whether any terrorists had been caught. The answer is "no".

3.) You're an idiot.
Posts: 9,174
Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Just Passin' By is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 11:36 AM   #37
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
1.) They were lying about plots being foiled. They were claiming 50. The real number was 0.
Incorrect. We don't know the real number and it depends on how you count them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
2.) You talked about whether any terrorists had been caught. The answer is "no".
I used "caught" only because that's the word GloucesterChief used when he made the same mistake you do. A better measure would be "caught, killed, prevented or deterred". We don't know how much, if any, this surveillance program has contributed to any of those measures though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
3.) You're an idiot.
But you're the one who is wrong.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 05:51 PM   #38
listopencil listopencil is offline
sic semper tyrannis
 
listopencil's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Partibus Infidelium
Casino cash: $5786
Intelligence Panel Recommends Limits On NSA Surveillance


by Scott Neuman


A panel looking into U.S. electronic surveillance activities in the wake of the Edward Snowden revelations has recommended removing the NSA's authority to collect and store Americans' telephone data.

-snip-

The White House said Wednesday that the president had met with the panel:
"This meeting offered President Obama an opportunity to hear directly from the group's members and discuss the thinking behind the 46 recommendations in their report. The President noted that the group's report represented a consensus view, particularly significant given the broad scope of the members' expertise in counterterrorism, intelligence, oversight, privacy and civil liberties. The President again stated his expectation that, in light of new technologies, the United States use its intelligence collection capabilities in a way that optimally protects our national security while supporting our foreign policy, respecting privacy and civil liberties, maintaining the public trust, and reducing the risk of unauthorized disclosure."




http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...a-surveillance


__________________
"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind I'd still be in prison."


Posts: 28,188
listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 08:42 PM   #39
JohnnyV13 JohnnyV13 is offline
Veteran
 
JohnnyV13's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tucson AZ
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Sure I did. You said, "NSA spying on everybody has probably caught 0 terrorists." I pointed out that you have no basis for saying that because we don't have any data one way or the other.
Pat, I've been thinking about this NSA thing for awhile now.

The problem that I can't get past is the FISA structure is, I think, ultimately defective.

We can see this if we presume, arguendo, that FISA erroneously approves a search request.

Now, the federal justices that sit on the FISA process, are NOT sitting under their judicial authority. Judicial authority only attaches when there is a "case" or "controversy". It's neither a "case" or "controversy" when the federal government asks to wiretap, or collect metadata, when there is no known case and they are fishing for terrorist activity. Thus, the judges can only be rendering an advisory opinion and their judicial authority does not attach to their opinions.

Then, a search can only issue on "probable cause".

Now, if a judge issues such a search order and makes an erroneous judgement (inevitable you'll make errors if you make enough decisions), about probable cause in a typical criminal case, at least that judge is exercising their constitutionally-mandated power.

However, if a FISA judge issues what can only be an advisory opinion, now that erroneous permission HAS NO CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS. In this case, the authority is rooted in the president's executive power. Presidential appointees acting under executive authority have no power to issue a search. That means that if the FISA "court" makes an error, the people executing this order are committing a federal crime and, due to secrecy, NO ONE CAN DISCOVER INFORMATION ON IT!!!

So the whole structure of the NSA means that you've set up a system to hide criminal activity by the government.

I think that's fundamentally disturbing.
__________________
http://thevirilview.com/royals

Where blogging is cheap therapy for 27 years of frustration
Posts: 2,838
JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 11:14 PM   #40
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Pat, I've been thinking about this NSA thing for awhile now.

The problem that I can't get past is the FISA structure is, I think, ultimately defective.

We can see this if we presume, arguendo, that FISA erroneously approves a search request.

Now, the federal justices that sit on the FISA process, are NOT sitting under their judicial authority. Judicial authority only attaches when there is a "case" or "controversy". It's neither a "case" or "controversy" when the federal government asks to wiretap, or collect metadata, when there is no known case and they are fishing for terrorist activity. Thus, the judges can only be rendering an advisory opinion and their judicial authority does not attach to their opinions.

Then, a search can only issue on "probable cause".

Now, if a judge issues such a search order and makes an erroneous judgement (inevitable you'll make errors if you make enough decisions), about probable cause in a typical criminal case, at least that judge is exercising their constitutionally-mandated power.

However, if a FISA judge issues what can only be an advisory opinion, now that erroneous permission HAS NO CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS. In this case, the authority is rooted in the president's executive power. Presidential appointees acting under executive authority have no power to issue a search. That means that if the FISA "court" makes an error, the people executing this order are committing a federal crime and, due to secrecy, NO ONE CAN DISCOVER INFORMATION ON IT!!!

So the whole structure of the NSA means that you've set up a system to hide criminal activity by the government.

I think that's fundamentally disturbing.
I'm no expert on federal procedure or FISA, but I think your scenario is off on one part. They gather the metadata without a warrant. They supposedly only go after a warrant when they want to connect a "known" foreign phone to numbers it may have been in contact with here in the US, presumably only if they have some "standard of belief" that the phone belongs to a "legitimate target of interest". Don't ask me to define these terms, because I can't. I don't know what standard the FISA court uses to approve requests.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2013, 01:04 AM   #41
JohnnyV13 JohnnyV13 is offline
Veteran
 
JohnnyV13's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tucson AZ
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I'm no expert on federal procedure or FISA, but I think your scenario is off on one part. They gather the metadata without a warrant. They supposedly only go after a warrant when they want to connect a "known" foreign phone to numbers it may have been in contact with here in the US, presumably only if they have some "standard of belief" that the phone belongs to a "legitimate target of interest". Don't ask me to define these terms, because I can't. I don't know what standard the FISA court uses to approve requests.
I do know a bit about this.

Metadata no, but they can also tap communications of foreign nationals living in the US, or communications that go overseas, AND they can trace people who have contacts with people known to communicate with suspicious individuals. They are authorized to go to 3 degrees of separation.

Those foreign nationals are NOT protected by constitutional protections. However, some of their communications can be with US citizens who DO have constitutional rights. That's where some of these cases can get messy, and that's one of the reason the whole FISA process exits.

Now, the justice department can give blanket approvals to investigate particular targets, and those blanket approvals last for a year.

Within the scope of those approvals, NSA people have a broad latitude to access data. The scenario I lay out above applies to the FISA process approving data collection against some of these targets. I think the process is fundamentally defective.

The problem is, what better system could you create and still maintain secrecy? The judges are federal judges. I'm sure their opinions aren't fluff, and I am sure they take their role of protecting the constitution seriously.

However, bias is hard for anyone to completely root out, and by becoming part of the system they are going to have a bias.
__________________
http://thevirilview.com/royals

Where blogging is cheap therapy for 27 years of frustration
Posts: 2,838
JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.JohnnyV13 must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.