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Old 01-20-2014, 10:33 PM  
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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The Incoherence of Atheism - Ravi Zacharias



Ravi is the modern day C.S. Lewis.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:40 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
Re: The bolded...

I think Lewis would have been well-served to include that component in his liar/lunatic/lord thinking.

If you're going to examine reasons for the Biblical Jesus to say what he is reported to say and consider the possibilities that he was a lunatic or a liar, why not examine the motives of his followers (and the people who started writing down his teaching decades after his death). That gives you the scenario that Jesus was a real guy who had a following and was a holy man/moral leader/etc., but his followers were liars and/or lunatics.
The following is hard to argue in my opinion~

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

C.S. Lewis,
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:03 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
There's also those who worship the state for a religion of the state. Certain ideologies fall into that category. Some of them worship black robed deities. The ones that do hate other religions, in particular Christianity (most dominant one in this country), because it competes with the state and because those religions cherish a higher power than the state.
This is just stupid.
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As long as Jesus Christ was the president of the US and approved of it Yes.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:58 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by RNR View Post
Two books I would recommend would be Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why and Forged - Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are. Both are written by Bart D. Ehrman I seriously doubt you will look into any of this as you are among those who believe they already know all they need to know. You will continue to enter into these discussions arrogantly confident whipping out your faith membership card and threatening those who dare to question your beliefs~
Already have my friend.

http://www.isca-apologetics.org/site...BartEhrman.pdf

http://www.christianpost.com/news/ap...l-jesus-48532/

http://www.christianpost.com/news/is...-forged-49605/
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:59 AM   #139
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This thread: The incoherence of arguing about an imaginary being
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:03 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
This thread: The incoherence of arguing about an imaginary being
No, it's about those who call such a being "imaginary."
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:09 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
No, it's about those who call such a being "imaginary."
And yet, not a single speck of proof has been found. That, by all possible standards, is imaginary.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:16 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by RNR View Post
The following is hard to argue in my opinion~

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

C.S. Lewis,
See, your heart and common sense(there still must be something to this Jesus person) you have still not abandoned as of yet. Lewis was absolutely correct in stating it the way he did. He puts you on the spot literally making yourself ask the question was he really God incarnate ? To say he was just a great moral teacher and no more is an insult and blasphemy. He was all that and MORE(a la He was and IS GOD)

You are good man RNR and I know you will keep seeking and searching like Lewis did and eventually you will be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming like a little child(admitting his sin of 'The Pride of Life') just as Lewis described himself when he realized that Jesus was the Son of God and then accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:17 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
And yet, not a single speck of proof has been found. That, by all possible standards, is imaginary.
What do you mean by "speck of truth"? Are you talking about evidence?
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:19 PM   #144
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What do you mean by "speck of truth"? Are you talking about evidence?
Reads "speck of proof".
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:27 PM   #145
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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This is actually pretty big and compelling evidence that religion is a pile of man-made crap.
I assume you are including Christianity when you make this statement. If so, you willing to make that bet at the end of your life when you die?
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:29 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
There's also those who worship the state for a religion of the state. Certain ideologies fall into that category. Some of them worship black robed deities. The ones that do hate other religions, in particular Christianity (most dominant one in this country), because it competes with the state and because those religions cherish a higher power than the state.
I just want to reiterate how stupid this is.
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As long as Jesus Christ was the president of the US and approved of it Yes.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:33 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNR View Post
The following is hard to argue in my opinion~

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

C.S. Lewis,
That's all well and good if you accept the complete narrative of the Bible as being 100 percent accurate and the things Jesus said all being exactly what he said.

But what if a man who was merely a man did not say all of the things he is credited with saying? What if his followers added to his message (or the followers of his followers did) as part of the deification of said man?

In that case the liar/lunatic is not Jesus. It is the people who came after.

If you don't have faith that the Bible was divinely inspired and therefore a completely accurate representation of the things Jesus actually said, the whole liar/lunatic/lord thing completely breaks down.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:36 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
I assume you are including Christianity when you make this statement. If so, you willing to make that bet at the end of your life when you die?
Pascal's Wager strikes again!

To answer the question for him:

I'm willing to make that bet this second, this minute, this day, the next day, and every day following.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:40 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
I love it when people bring in Pascal's Wager. More reliable than just about anything in these debates.

If you don't believe all the events of the New Testament, the lunatic/liar/lord thing breaks down.
No it does not break down IF you are intellectually honest as RNR said previously.

Again, are you willing to make that bet at the end of your life of which you know not when that bell tolls for you ? Which is even scarier for the 'unsaved'
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:48 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
No it does not break down IF you are intellectually honest as RNR said previously.

Again, are you willing to make that bet at the end of your life of which you know not when that bell tolls for you ? Which is even scarier for the 'unsaved'
See expansion of the thought below.

As far as the bet, yes I already answered that. You're actually weakening your arguments by bringing in Pascal's Wager, in my opinion. I think you're better than that.

I'm not afraid to die, and I'm certainly not afraid to die "unsaved."

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
That's all well and good if you accept the complete narrative of the Bible as being 100 percent accurate and the things Jesus said all being exactly what he said.

But what if a man who was merely a man did not say all of the things he is credited with saying? What if his followers added to his message (or the followers of his followers did) as part of the deification of said man?

In that case the liar/lunatic is not Jesus. It is the people who came after.

If you don't have faith that the Bible was divinely inspired and therefore a completely accurate representation of the things Jesus actually said, the whole liar/lunatic/lord thing completely breaks down.
If you place no credence or belief in the Bible as an accurate record of historical events (and I, like almost all who don't believe in God, don't), if you see it as a collection of stories and myths, and you don't believe a man named Jesus actually said and did the things with which he is credited saying and doing in the New Testament, then C.S. Lewis' argument completely breaks down.

It's like quoting scripture from the Bible as a reason a person who doesn't believe in God should believe in God.
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