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Old 01-11-2014, 01:54 PM  
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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Frank Turek, Answering Hawking and his The Grand Design

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Old 01-24-2014, 01:48 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by MAYHEM View Post
Why?
What ever created the universe does not follow natural law.

Meaning to us its metaphysical.

Simply put, if there is no time/space, then there is no natural law.

Whatever created the universe operates outside of time and space/natural law.
You don't know that though. That's an unfounded and unprovable statement. It could be true, but then again it might not. Personally, I think it's a cop out to simply say a creator could just be outside of time and space. That's simply avoiding the question. It's just as likely that there is a creator who does operate within time and space, we just don't have a way to understand or define the operations yet. Some of our physics break down in parts of the universe. Our physics cannot explain what goes on inside a black hole. But that doesn't mean our physics are flawed or wrong. Just incomplete. It very well may be that a creator does operate within the limits of space and time, but our knowledge of space and time isn't complete enough yet...
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:01 PM   #242
MAYHEM MAYHEM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Here's the basics of making a logical statement:

Let's look at what the poster said:

Poster stated that:

Premise1: Something exists
Premise2: Everything we know and see has a cause
Conclusion: Everything in the universe must have a cause

The problem with this is a fallacy called Appeal to Probability. From our incredibly limited experience we assume that something cannot come from nothing. Therefore Premise 2 limits "Everything" to "What we know and see". But the conclusion makes a statement about things we don't know. That fact invalidates the statement from being logical. The conclusion qualifies as a reasonable statement. But not logical.
You are reaching to say its not a logical statement, when it is just that.

So Plato and Aristotle were not using logic, didn't know what logical form was, nor the basics of a logical statement?

That poster said the same thing as Plato pretty much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
A causal loop cannot exist.
A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.
Logical Form:

Quote:
All humans are mortal.
Socrates is human.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.
I guess humans aren't all mortal. That's appeal to probability.
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:36 PM   #243
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
Some are arguing for a creator (specifically). I am not one of them. I am arguing that EVEN IF THE UNIVERSE WERE ETERNAL, there would still have to be some cause that is "first." I have said nothing about "creation from nothing (ex nihilo)" because I do not think creation is something that can be proved.
Why?
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:36 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAYHEM View Post
You are reaching to say its not a logical statement, when it is just that.

So Plato and Aristotle were not using logic, didn't know what logical form was, nor the basics of a logical statement?

That poster said the same thing as Plato pretty much.


Logical Form:


I guess humans aren't all mortal. That's appeal to probability.
No, the poster didn't say the same thing pretty much. It's either the same thing or it's not. Saying "Pretty much" acknowledges the shortcomings. The poster's premise used human experience, but made a conclusion about the entire universe, which is enormously greater than the scope of human experience.
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:37 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
Some are arguing for a creator (specifically). I am not one of them. I am arguing that EVEN IF THE UNIVERSE WERE ETERNAL, there would still have to be some cause that is "first." I have said nothing about "creation from nothing (ex nihilo)" because I do not think creation is something that can be proved.
Why would we assume that?
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:42 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAYHEM View Post
You are reaching to say its not a logical statement, when it is just that.

So Plato and Aristotle were not using logic, didn't know what logical form was, nor the basics of a logical statement?

That poster said the same thing as Plato pretty much.


Logical Form:


I guess humans aren't all mortal. That's appeal to probability.

Are you being intentionally obtuse I'm not quite sure whether my sarcasm meter needs an adjustment or not who gives a crap what Plato or Aristotle thought or what what wiki says they have been wrong. If your premise is wrong then all that follows will be wrong as well just because it's a logical argument doesn't mean it's true
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:56 PM   #247
MAYHEM MAYHEM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You don't know that though. That's an unfounded and unprovable statement. It could be true, but then again it might not. Personally, I think it's a cop out to simply say a creator could just be outside of time and space.

That's simply avoiding the question. It's just as likely that there is a creator who does operate within time and space, we just don't have a way to understand or define the operations yet. Some of our physics break down in parts of the universe. Our physics cannot explain what goes on inside a black hole. But that doesn't mean our physics are flawed or wrong. Just incomplete. It very well may be that a creator does operate within the limits of space and time, but our knowledge of space and time isn't complete enough yet...
I think Aristotle was saying that to create an eternal infinite universe, it would take a metaphysical power. I'm not sure if he meant a God when he said "unmoved mover".

It was basically a cop out in ancient times, too, or just a realization that its an unanswerable question.

I like the first cause argument, its something people have been questioning for as long as people have been able to think.

It's almost innate--I bet most question where they came from and why they exist from a young age. Something tremendous in that I think.
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:59 PM   #248
MAYHEM MAYHEM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Are you being intentionally obtuse I'm not quite sure whether my sarcasm meter needs an adjustment or not who gives a crap what Plato or Aristotle thought or what what wiki says they have been wrong. If your premise is wrong then all that follows will be wrong as well just because it's a logical argument doesn't mean it's true
Being logical and being "true" are two different things.

And I don't understand why Plato and Aristotle wouldn't know logic, considering Aristotle coined the concept of logic in the western world.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:03 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAYHEM View Post
I think Aristotle was saying that to create an eternal infinite universe, it would take a metaphysical power. I'm not sure if he meant a God when he said "unmoved mover".

It was basically a cop out in ancient times, too, or just a realization that its an unanswerable question.

I like the first cause argument, its something people have been questioning for as long as people have been able to think.

It's almost innate--I bet most question where they came from and why they exist from a young age. Something tremendous in that I think.
That's definitely true from what I know of it. If I remember correctly, Aristotle didn't even think the unmoved mover was actually aware of the universe that it moved into existence.

I like the first cause argument too. It's a great thought exercise, no matter what your opinions are.
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