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Old 02-25-2014, 08:20 AM  
planetdoc planetdoc is offline
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Covert Agents Infiltrate the net to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...-manipulation/

I tried copy/pasta but the article is long, difficult to to embed all images/links of which there are many.

Here is a TL;DR:
Quote:
Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable.
Mind blowing article with so many implications. Unfortunately this gives more credibility to people calling "shill" with everyone they disagree with. But it turns out that there are such agents actively manipulating opinions in online forums. The slides he shows even mentions some of their tactics such as using: confirmation bias, disinfo, slander, anchoring, priming, social penetration theory, attention control, etc.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:42 PM   #61
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Read some of the stuff from wikileaks files. Including what's going on in the Ukraine. It's no wonder the Establishment is going bonkers over Snowden.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:42 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Other than the news articles describing such programs in 2004 or so.
sure, we can talk about NSA's secret room within AT&T in california, or the revelations from Binney, or Thomas Drake.....but they didnt provide proof other than their own testimony. Mainstream Media rejected the allegations as "conspiracy theory", and courts rejected lawsuits since people couldnt prove the existence of such programs or that they had standing in such cases.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There still isn't any proof that government is participating in massive domestic surveillance, unless by surveillance you mean data warehousing for potential warrant-enabled access in the future.
Merriam Webster's definition of surveillance:

Quote:
the act of carefully watching someone or something especially in order to prevent or detect a crime
I'm not going to argue over NSA semantics and definitions that they use to justify their behavior. I think what they are doing falls under the commonly interpreted definition of surveillance.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:53 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
Merriam Webster's definition of surveillance:



I'm not going to argue over NSA semantics and definitions that they use to justify their behavior. I think what they are doing falls under the commonly interpreted definition of surveillance.
Nope. Let's use an analogy. If you carefully read every book in the library, you will presumably learn many new things about the contents of those books. If you just haul those books off into a warehouse somewhere without reading them, you don't have any idea what they contain.

Your definition says "carefully watching". This isn't careful watching, it's hauling records into a warehouse for potential use later (with a warrant).
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:56 PM   #65
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Operation Gladio is one of the worst true conspiracy theories. The CIA trained staybehind armies to act as paramilitary agents in the case of a possible Soviet Invasion. Reasonable enough, except that in 9 countries (most notably Italy), those agents caused all sorts of terrorism, for example the Bologna Massacre, where 85 people died.
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Old 02-25-2014, 02:02 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Nope. Let's use an analogy.
your analogy is flawed. One doesnt have to look at each individual record. The computer systems are sophisticated enough to look at telephone, email, sms, bank, and other records of individuals to make associations and flag them based on a filter for follow-up by analysts such as Snowden. Further, they are doing this without a warrant, and using what they gain to "parallel-construct" a story to gain probably cause to get a warrant.

In anycase, whether you agree or disagree is immaterial to the info provided in the Original Post. I would rather not take part in spiraling the discussion away from the original topic.
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Old 02-25-2014, 02:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
your analogy is flawed. One doesnt have to look at each individual record. The computer systems are sophisticated enough to look at telephone, email, sms, bank, and other records of individuals to make associations and flag them based on a filter for follow-up by analysts such as Snowden. Further, they are doing this without a warrant, and using what they gain to "parallel-construct" a story to gain probably cause to get a warrant.

In anycase, whether you agree or disagree is immaterial to the info provided in the Original Post. I would rather not take part in spiraling the discussion away from the original topic.
Snowden wasn't that kind of analyst.

You're conflating different surveillance programs with each other. Each one has to be considered separately.

You're getting your parallel construction story mixed up too.

P.S. All analogies are flawed. What matters is whether they get the important parts right. My analogy isn't perfect, but it represents the most notorious NSA program in all important respects.
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Old 02-25-2014, 02:55 PM   #68
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Mmmmm, copy pasta. Will that be the red sauce or the white?
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tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.tooge has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:57 PM   #69
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Ummmm...how is he supposed to do that? Can he go to the store and buy a hundred IQ points? I think not..stuck for sure.
If I bought 100 IQ points that would mean I'd have at least 200 more than you. But, then again, you're probably on the negative scale that scientists had to create to compare you to the rest of humanity---so pretty much everyone else on here would be able to say the same thing.
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:00 PM   #70
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My mother always told me, that boys who give you the most attention just have a crush on you.

JohnnyV, does not tell other posters saying similar to what I said to stop. He just stalks me instead.

You like me JonnhyV! You, really, really like me!!
Your mother told you that to give you hope that someone, someday, might be interested.

Today is not that day.
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:05 PM   #71
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JohnnyV, Cosmo, Donger
You're a dumb ass, KC. You do realize that I despise Obama, don't you?
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:29 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
1. La Cosa Nostra. AKA the American Mafia. A conspiracy theory until Joe Valachi became the first Mafia member to turn state's evidence in 1963. Until then, if you tried to talk to people about it, you were a kook.

2. Echelon.

3. Gulf of Tonkin. You know, that shit that got the USA officially into the Vietnam War.
In late 2005, the National Security Agency declassified its own official history of the Gulf of Tonkin and admitted that intelligence agency officers had deliberately skewed the intelligence and claimed that Vietnamese patrol boats had attacked US Destroyers on Aug. 4th, 1964, when in reality they had done nothing even while being fired on by US forces. Exactly like the captains of the US ship had described it right after that got back into port.

4. General Motors streetcar conspiracy

5. Project MK-ULTRA.



all without consent.

that is just starters.
Okay, a few of those are probably legitimate, although I don't now how many were considered "conspiracy theories" before the truth came to light on them. But I digress.

I still don't see how debunking conspiracy theories equates to the thread title.
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:31 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
Conspiracy theories may or may not be true. The tactics are questionable in nature:



"flooding with information (or disinformation)." Makes it harder to distinguish truth from noise.



outsourcing PR



this sure suggests and corroborates some of the OP. Sunstein is advocating "breaking up" of "conspiracy-minded groups."

There are plenty of conspiracy theories that have turned out to be true. Sunstein doesnt advocate in spreading truth or knowledge. He advocates breaking up conspiracy groups and those that question the official story.
Are those your quotes or someone else's? Did you add "(or disinformation)"?
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:39 PM   #74
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I still don't see how debunking conspiracy theories equates to the thread title.
I feel like I already addressed this in the earlier post. I am just responding so that you realize that I am not ignoring your post and picking and choosing what to respond to.

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Are those your quotes or someone else's? Did you add "(or disinformation)"?
Those in the text box are Sustein's quotes. I will go back and edit that to make it more clear.

Words outside of the text box are mine. I added "disinformation" because flooding with information could be flooding with factual information or erroneous and I wanted that to be clear.
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:53 PM   #75
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I feel like I already addressed this in the earlier post. I am just responding so that you realize that I am not ignoring your post and picking and choosing what to respond to.
Okay, thanks.

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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
Those in the text box are Sustein's quotes. I will go back and edit that to make it more clear.

Words outside of the text box are mine. I added "disinformation" because flooding with information could be flooding with factual information or erroneous and I wanted that to be clear.
Reading through the paper, only once is what you quoted mentioned. Every other time, it is this: "cognitive infiltration of extremist groups"
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