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Old 02-25-2014, 07:20 AM  
planetdoc planetdoc is offline
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Covert Agents Infiltrate the net to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...-manipulation/

I tried copy/pasta but the article is long, difficult to to embed all images/links of which there are many.

Here is a TL;DR:
Quote:
Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable.
Mind blowing article with so many implications. Unfortunately this gives more credibility to people calling "shill" with everyone they disagree with. But it turns out that there are such agents actively manipulating opinions in online forums. The slides he shows even mentions some of their tactics such as using: confirmation bias, disinfo, slander, anchoring, priming, social penetration theory, attention control, etc.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:16 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Are you suggesting that you have all the facts required for you have an opinion about the OP?
Nope, I am not suggesting that. I would appreciate if the government would unclassify and share with the public any information they have regarding the subject.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:21 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
Being classified, I wouldnt know. I just know classified documents regarding 9-11 exist.
link


Before it was released by the commission, the final public report was screened for any potentially classified information and edited as necessary.

In December of 2013 Some congressman called for declassification of info in the 9-11 report.


It seems that the Congressman dont believe that the American people are getting a full account of the events. Without a full account, one cannot accurately disern the validity of the "official story."

Senator Bob Graham said,





The fact that the agencies working for the UK government are claiming they are doing those activities are enough. These are claims by official state actors, and thus should be held to a higher standard than NGOs.



It would be sickening and enraging for the US government to carry out an attack against the American people such as 9-11. I hope that is not the case. It would be something I wouldnt want to believe. My "gut" will be tainted by those hopes.

Most physicians refuse to treat loved one for serious illness so that their emotions dont taint their decision making regarding medical care. I want to make opinions on facts, not on my emotions or guts. I am waiting to see all the facts.
Do you always wait to see all the facts before expressing an opinion? Do you think there are classified documents related to NSA surveillance that you've never seen?
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:22 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Do you always wait to see all the facts before expressing an opinion?
no

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Do you think there are classified documents related to NSA surveillance that you've never seen?
yes
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:24 PM   #94
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Strange. You acknowledge that you don't have all the facts about what your government is or isn't doing (and therefore shouldn't express an opinion about it) and yet you write this: But it turns out that there are such agents actively manipulating opinions in online forums. The slides he shows even mentions some of their tactics such as using: confirmation bias, disinfo, slander, anchoring, priming, social penetration theory, attention control, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
ignorance is bliss.
Pardon? What have you seen that makes sense contrary to the "official" version?

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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
In the GCHQ slides shared in Glenn Greenwald's article which is linked in the OP. He shows a slide to back up each of his assertions. If you have difficulty understanding than I would suggest you ask your questions in the commentary section of that article. I am confident He or one of his readers can help answer your questions.
Actually, no, he doesn't. How do you know that what is shown on the slides is ACTUALLY being done and not just a suggested course of possible action?
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:37 PM   #95
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Strange. You acknowledge that you don't have all the facts about what your government is or isn't doing (and therefore shouldn't express an opinion about it)
That is regarding 9-11, not necessarily everything. I didnt make that statement regarding everything. Further, I have clearly made an opinion to wait based on info provided by politicians who have seen the full 9-11 report.

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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
and yet you write this: But it turns out that there are such agents actively manipulating opinions in online forums. The slides he shows even mentions some of their tactics such as using: confirmation bias, disinfo, slander, anchoring, priming, social penetration theory, attention control, etc.
how is that strange? The slides clearly suggest those tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Pardon? What have you seen that makes sense contrary to the "official" version?
I havent seen all the evidence one way or the other. Information is classified. Politicians who have seen the full 9-11 report state that the american public is not getting all the info.

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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Actually, no, he doesn't. How do you know that what is shown on the slides is ACTUALLY being done and not just a suggested course of possible action?
I am concerned regardless of whether it is a suggested course of action or whether it is actually being done. Greenwald provides some proof with links within his article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenwald
Over the last several weeks, I worked with NBC News to publish a series of articles about “dirty trick” tactics used by GCHQ’s previously secret unit, JTRIG (Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group). These were based on four classified GCHQ documents presented to the NSA and the other three partners in the English-speaking “Five Eyes” alliance. Today, we at the Intercept are publishing another new JTRIG document, in full, entitled “The Art of Deception: Training for Online Covert Operations.”

By publishing these stories one by one, our NBC reporting highlighted some of the key, discrete revelations: the monitoring of YouTube and Blogger, the targeting of Anonymous with the very same DDoS attacks they accuse “hacktivists” of using, the use of “honey traps” (luring people into compromising situations using sex) and destructive viruses. But, here, I want to focus and elaborate on the overarching point revealed by all of these documents: namely, that these agencies are attempting to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse, and in doing so, are compromising the integrity of the internet itself.
please see the links in his article that he referenced to come up with "the overarching point revealed by all of these documents."

If you dont believe Greenwald's assertions, than your argument is with him and you should address those questions to him. He has won a number of journalistic awards for his reporting, so it seems his peers hold his credibility and journalistic ability in high regard.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:44 PM   #96
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So, to sum up...

1) You KNOW that what is shown in the slides is actually being done, but you have no proof that is the case. But, since you want to believe it, that's fine.

2) You refuse to state an opinion on 9/11 because you haven't seen all the classified information based on the event.

Is that a good summation?
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:50 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, to sum up...

1) You KNOW that what is shown in the slides is actually being done, but you have no proof that is the case. But, since you want to believe it, that's fine.
No. proof is in the links Greenwald provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
2) You refuse to state an opinion on 9/11 because you haven't seen all the classified information based on the event.

Is that a good summation?
partially.

A more accurate statement is that I refuse to state an opinion on 9/11 because key politicians involved in the 9-11 report and who have seen unclassified versions of the 9-11 report state that the American Public are not getting all the information, and that it is "vital for a full understanding."
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:58 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
No. proof is in the links Greenwald provided.
No, it isn't. You don't KNOW that what is shown isn't just a suggested course of action. If you have such proof, present it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post

partially.

A more accurate statement is that I refuse to state an opinion on 9/11 because key politicians involved in the 9-11 report and who have seen unclassified versions of the 9-11 report state that the American Public are not getting all the information, and that it is "vital for a full understanding."
Of course we aren't getting all the information. The classified portions most likely would, if revealed, damage our ability to accurately and effectively gather intelligence. Just because some congress critter says that it's vital doesn't make it so.

Forgive me, but you seem to have a penchant for selective judgment based on what you WANT to believe and what you don't.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:05 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
no
Why would you need to wait in this case? Do you actually think it's plausible that the US government either participated in the 9/11 attacks or allowed them to happen?
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:20 PM   #100
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No, it isn't. You don't KNOW that what is shown isn't just a suggested course of action. If you have such proof, present it.
I'm not going to get into a repetitive "is too" vs "is not" argument with you. its childish.

I do know what is shown isn't just a suggested course of action.



Notice it says, "establishing the Human Science Operations Cell."

establishing is an action verb.
Operations = activities.

definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by webster
performance of a practical work or of something involving the practical application of principles or processes. a procedure performed
An operation suggests a group that is doing an activity.



Plays of the playbook performed. No where in slides do they state that they are just suggestions. These are plays that are to be performed in an operation by the JTRIG unit.

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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Of course we aren't getting all the information. The classified portions most likely would, if revealed, damage our ability to accurately and effectively gather intelligence.
thats your assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Just because some congress critter says that it's vital doesn't make it so.
True, but I'd like to see for myself. When a bipartisan group of 2 democratic congressman, and 4 republican congressman urge declassifcation of the 9-11 report, I take notice.

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Forgive me, but you seem to have a penchant for selective judgment based on what you WANT to believe and what you don't.
why do you say that?
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:29 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
It would be sickening and enraging for the US government to carry out an attack against the American people such as 9-11. I hope that is not the case. It would be something I wouldnt want to believe. My "gut" will be tainted by those hopes.

Most physicians refuse to treat loved one for serious illness so that their emotions dont taint their decision making regarding medical care. I want to make opinions on facts, not on my emotions or guts. I am waiting to see all the facts.
More bullshit. How about this--Based on what you know?
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:32 PM   #102
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Why would you need to wait in this case?
this is getting repetitive, and badgering. IMO, you are asking the same questions repetitively in a slightly different manner. that is poor form.

I am waiting in regards to 9-11 because congressman have stated that the american people are not getting vital info necessary to get a full understanding of what happened. That vital info is classified.

I cannot make an informed decision if I am not fully informed. Congresmman have stated that the american people are not fully informed.

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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Do you actually think it's plausible that the US government either participated in the 9/11 attacks or allowed them to happen?
Plausible for the US government as a whole? No. The total federal employment in 2012 was at least 4,312,000 people.

Although there were over 130,000 americans who participated in the Manhattan project and kept it secret till a bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, I dont think it is plausible for something like 9-11 to be kept secret in such large scale.

The 9-11 report did state that their was a failure of intelligence, and that some of the hijackers were identified by some US officials prior to 9-11.

Plausible that some US individuals (such as citizens) either participated in the 9/11 attacks or allowed them to happen? Its possible. The USA is a country of over 300 million. If its possible for 19 hijackers to carry out the attack, then its theoretically possible that some US individuals conspired. I dont have proof one way or the other.

I would like the 9-11 report to be completely unclassified so that I can gain vital information needed to come to a better understanding of what happened.

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Old 02-25-2014, 08:36 PM   #103
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More bullshit. How about this--Based on what you know?
I dont know enough to make an informed decision regarding that event. Why is it so important for you that I put myself in a "official story" vs "truther" camp based on limited info [which even congressman agree is limited]?
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:38 PM   #104
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Wow, okay. No where do those slides say or even intimate that that is what is actually happening, but you are fine with accepting that it is.

And I know why: because you WANT to believe it is happening.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:38 PM   #105
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I dont know enough to make an informed decision regarding that event. Why is it so important for you that I put myself in a "official story" vs "truther" camp based on limited info [which even congressman agree is limited]?
I find it interesting to know who the lunatics are. You've outed yourself as one, as well as a spineless hypocrite.
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