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Old 02-26-2014, 07:07 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Down goes Arizonas Anti-gay Bill

Governor vetoes it.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:11 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by fan4ever View Post
If this thing makes it back for a re-vote it'll go down in flames. The people who voted for it heard from their constituency big time I'm happy to say.
why did they support it in the first place?
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:13 PM   #32
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Apparently now Missouri is taking up a version of this.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla View Post
why did they support it in the first place?
Short answer; we got a bunch of hoe-dunks in the legislature right now on the Republican side of the isle. See that Cosmo? It's called calling out your party when they do something stupid. Try it...you'll feel like a grown up. Oh, wait...I know...it hasn't happened yet.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:26 PM   #34
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I don't think it's right to treat sexual orientation like race in the eyes of the law or that it should be a protected class, but it's hard for me to imagine why someone would think this piece of legislation was a good idea.
There's been a lot of misinformation about this legislation. I don't know whether it's language is over broad or not, but there is going to be pressure on people who oppose same sex marriage on religious grounds to swallow their objections and embrace it to one degree or another. We can rely exclusively on judges to protect religious liberties, but that seems risky to me.

Here is a letter (posted by Paul Mirengoff of Powerline) written to the Arizona governor urging her to sign this legislation. It is signed by a bipartisan group of legal scholars from both sides of the same sex marriage divide.

Quote:
SB1062, which amends Arizona’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, is on your desk for signature. The bill has been egregiously misrepresented by many of its critics. We write because we believe that you should make your decision on the basis of accurate information.

Some of us are Republicans; some of us are Democrats. Some of us are religious; some of us are not. Some of us oppose same-sex marriage; some of us support it. Nine of the eleven signers of this letter believe that you should sign the bill; two are unsure. But all of us believe that many criticisms of the Arizona bill are deeply misleading.


The federal government and eighteen states have Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs). Another twelve or thirteen states interpret their state constitutions to provide similar protections. These laws enact a uniform standard to be interpreted and applied to individual cases by courts. They say that before the government can burden a person’s religious exercise, the government has to show a compelling justification.

That standard makes sense. We should not punish people for practicing their religions unless we have a very good reason. Arizona has had a RFRA for nearly fifteen years now; the federal government has had one since 1993; and RFRA’s standard was the constitutional standard for the entire country from 1963 to 1990.

There have been relatively few cases; if you knew little about the Arizona RFRA until the current controversy, that is because it has had no disruptive effect in Arizona. Few people had heard of the federal RFRA before the current litigation over contraception and the Affordable Care Act.

SB1062 would amend the Arizona RFRA to address two ambiguities that have been the subject of litigation under other RFRAs. It would provide that people are covered when state or local government requires them to violate their religion in the conduct of their business, and it would provide that people are covered when sued by a private citizen invoking state or local law to demand that they violate their religion.

But nothing in the amendment would say who wins in either of these cases. The person invoking RFRA would still have to prove that he had a sincere religious belief and that state or local government was imposing a substantial burden on his exercise of that religious belief. And the government, or the person on the other side of the lawsuit, could still show that compliance with the law was necessary to serve a compelling government interest.

As a business gets bigger and more impersonal, courts will become more skeptical about claims of substantial burden on the owner’s exercise of religion. And as a business gets bigger, the government’s claim of compelling interest will become stronger.

Arizona’s RFRA, like all RFRAs, leaves resolution of these issues to the courts for two related reasons. First, it is impossible for legislatures to foresee all the potential conflicts between the diverse religious practices of the many faiths practiced in Arizona and the diverse array of regulations enacted by the state and all its agencies, counties, municipalities, and special purpose districts.

And second, when passions are aroused on all sides, as they have been in this case, it becomes extraordinarily difficult for legislatures to make principled decisions about whether to make exceptions for unpopular religious practices. Courts can generally devote more time to the question, hear the evidence from both sides, and be more insulated from interest-group pressure.

So, to be clear: SB1062 does not say that businesses can discriminate for religious reasons. It says that business people can assert a claim or defense under RFRA, in any kind of case (discrimination cases are not even mentioned, although they would be included), that they have the burden of proving a substantial burden on a sincere religious practice, that the government or the person suing them has the burden of proof on compelling government interest, and that the state courts in Arizona make the final decision. . . .

There have been very few [RFRA] claims by businesses over the years, but there have been a few. It is true that some of these claims are based on objections to same-sex marriage, although that is not an issue in Arizona.

The cases pending in the Supreme Court involve business owners who believe they are being asked to pay for abortions. Business regulations do not often require a business owner to violate a deeply held religious belief, but sometimes they do, and when that happens, the Arizona RFRA should be available. Keep in mind that it will not guarantee either side a win; it will test the government’s claims and the religious believer’s claims under RFRA’s general standard.

Whatever judgment you pass on SB1062, you should not be misled by uninformed critics. The Arizona bill. . .resolves ambiguities that have been the subject of litigation elsewhere. It deserves your accurately informed consideration.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:41 PM   #35
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Patteeu, do you believe it is discriminatory to refuse service to gays and lesbians? Would you support the refusal of service to divorcees? How about women who conceive prior to marriage? There are people who do not support these people for religious purposes.

A GOP senator could not answer these questions. Hopefully you can.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
Patteeu, do you believe it is discriminatory to refuse service to gays and lesbians? Would you support the refusal of service to divorcees? How about women who conceive prior to marriage? There are people who do not support these people for religious purposes.

A GOP senator could not answer these questions. Hopefully you can.
Of course it is.

No.

No.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:46 PM   #37
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Of course it is.

No.

No.
But you support the bill?
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:05 PM   #38
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There's been a lot of misinformation about this legislation. I don't know whether it's language is over broad or not, but there is going to be pressure on people who oppose same sex marriage on religious grounds to swallow their objections and embrace it to one degree or another. We can rely exclusively on judges to protect religious liberties, but that seems risky to me.
Keep up the good fight, pat!

Looks like Missouri is taking is stab at this, so it ain't over yet!
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
But you support the bill?
Yes, with the caveat that I'm open to hearing that there's a better way to achieve it's goals.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:07 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Keep up the good fight, pat!

Looks like Missouri is taking is stab at this, so it ain't over yet!
Over half the states have legislation (or constitutional provisions) like this.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:08 PM   #41
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Yes, with the caveat that I'm open to hearing that there's a better way to achieve it's goals.
I don't think that bill means what you think it means.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:09 PM   #42
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
But you support the bill?
I think maybe the thing is that you asked if HE would support refusal of service, etc. He may not, but he would support others doing so.

He's a slippery one that patteeu. If a question has any way to wiggle through it by answering without actually responding, he'll sniff it out instantly.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:12 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Over half the states have legislation (or constitutional provisions) like this.
They seem to think they aren't strong enough and that a stronger message is needed to convey to the country what shitheads they are.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:18 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
They seem to think they aren't strong enough and that a stronger message is needed to convey to the country what shitheads they are.
The letter I posted earlier in this thread explains that issue.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cephalic Trauma View Post
I don't think that bill means what you think it means.
I would say the same to you.
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