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Old 02-26-2014, 08:07 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Down goes Arizonas Anti-gay Bill

Governor vetoes it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:18 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I agree. I would rather that marriage was viewed as a legally binding social contract between consenting adults. The government would function as a record keeping device for these contracts. The only issue that the legal side would acknowledge for the religious side is in regards to who is authorized to perform a ceremony.
Yup.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:18 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, we're in agreement on that, but you read the Andrew Sullivan piece. I'm talking about the letter in post 34 which is an endorsement of the proposed law (or at least it's an endorsement by 9 of the 11 people who signed it with the other two not committing but agreeing that the law has been wildly distorted by it's critics).
I read it.
It's a solution in search of a problem and the cure is worse than the disease.


--that's a figure of speech; I'm not calling homo a disease
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:19 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
That being said I am totally against gay marriage rights but only because I am against SPECIAL govt involvement in marriage at all.
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but I take issue with special treatment under the law. (tax breaks, etc)
Right here
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:21 AM   #64
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Religion is a protected class is why.. this law tries to make a point that sexual orientation is not. Something that is very likely to change shortly. And if you believe sexual orientation is something one is born into then I can't see any reasonable justification for it NOT being protected just like race.
People are born with red hair, but hair color is not a protected class. People are born with unattractive features, but ugly isn't a protected class. I'm not sure I understand why you think being born in a particular way is the most important aspect for suspect class status. Religious freedom is a bedrock ideal upon which our country was founded.

Furthermore, I would argue that much like homosexuality, people who are true believers don't feel like they have a choice about their religion even if it isn't actually determined at birth.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I read it.
It's a solution in search of a problem and the cure is worse than the disease.


--that's a figure of speech; I'm not calling homo a disease
How is the cure worse than the disease?
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I read it.
It's a solution in search of a problem and the cure is worse than the disease.
I think you're half right. It IS a solution in search of a problem but I don't think the "cure" is any worse than having another useless/meaningless law on the books. Not a positive by any means but definitely not something to get worked up over.

You'd think by reading my Facebook feed today that we had just freed the slaves today after the law was vetoed.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:24 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I think you're half right. It IS a solution in search of a problem but I don't think the "cure" is any worse than having another useless/meaningless law on the books. Not a positive by any means but definitely not something to get worked up over.

You'd think by reading my Facebook feed today that we had just freed the slaves today after the law was vetoed.
It actually amends a law that's already on the books (to account for two areas of ambiguity identified by previous court challenges to laws in other jurisdictions with the same language) so it wouldn't be an additional law.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:33 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
People are born with red hair, but hair color is not a protected class. People are born with unattractive features, but ugly isn't a protected class. I'm not sure I understand why you think being born in a particular way is the most important aspect for suspect class status. Religious freedom is a bedrock ideal upon which our country was founded.

Furthermore, I would argue that much like homosexuality, people who are true believers don't feel like they have a choice about their religion even if it isn't actually determined at birth.
You gonna set up straw men for me to knock down? Awful nice of you!

If we are to have protected statuses at all (and that ship has sailed) than I think we need a logical and CONSISTENT basis for it.

It seems that the easiest way to do this is separate out what is a CHOICE and what is an inherent trait as your FIRST criteria. Then you need to look at historical bias based on that trait. If soulless gingers showed a history of oppression then I would argue that they qualify just as much as race or skin color does. Same for any other inherent trait. Gays certainly qualify on both counts.

Religion has an historic basis for being protected but that is IT. It has no logical foundation other than the LABEL of religion that separates it from neo-nazism or klan membership.

Explain to me (other than some weak "historical" nonsense) why if I walk into a dry cleaner wearing Klan regalia asking for them to clean my sheets they can refuse me service but if I walk in wearing a yarmulke they can not? (and for the sake of this argument let's pretend Judaism is only a religion and not also an ethnic group)

I'm by no means a supporter of the Klan but there are plenty of "religions" that can be damn near offensive in their CHOSEN views.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:34 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
People are born with red hair, but hair color is not a protected class. People are born with unattractive features, but ugly isn't a protected class. I'm not sure I understand why you think being born in a particular way is the most important aspect for suspect class status. Religious freedom is a bedrock ideal upon which our country was founded.
To your point to some degree:

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:37 AM   #70
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Funny side note: A year or two back someone brought up gay marriage at the bar and at some point I mentioned that people are BORN gay and I was shouted down by the LIBERALS in the bar. WTF??? No real point here just thought it was weird.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:56 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
How is the cure worse than the disease?
The problem/disease - having to deal with gays against your will
The Cure - Legalizing discrimination against anyone if based on your claimed religious beliefs
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:39 AM   #72
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Funny side note: A year or two back someone brought up gay marriage at the bar and at some point I mentioned that people are BORN gay and I was shouted down by the LIBERALS in the bar. WTF??? No real point here just thought it was weird.
Surprising for sure. You would think you would have been shouted down by Conservatives as did you. But Austin I believe it is both. Being a Christian psychotherapist for many years I have had the opportunity to counsel a fair amount homosexual men on many occasions. I've never counseled lesbians so I cannot speak to that population, only the men. I can only speak for my experience and the number of cases I've had to this point. When I say I believe it is both, I believe out of the population I had it was about a 80/20 mix meaning 80% of the cases homosexuality was learned and 20% were born homosexual. With that being said one would think if some were born that way then that means God must approve of and want homosexuality as well, correct ? Not in the slightest based on God's Word regarding homosexuality. As you know the Bible teaches that man is fallen because of his disobedience eating fron the tree of knowledge. This disobedient act screwed everything up ruining paradise for all. Everything from bad breath to physical handicaps. Everything ! This includes sexual orientation IMHO as well. I see those 20% who say they were born this way as actually having a physical handicap of brain chemistry when it comes to their own sexual orientation. So yes I do believe some are born this way not because God wants and approves homosexuality but rather the original sin of man that brought this cross wired errant brain chemistry on his own sexual orientation to a small population of the masses.

Now about the other 80% which is learned IMHO based on my case load experience. The media would have you think otherwise but I can tell you speaking from my own experience 70% of the 80% were victims of trusting relatives and close family friends who were pedophiles and violated them routinely for a long period of time starting at a very early age thus 'learning the homosexual lifestyle' over time in a false loving and false relational environment taking advantage of the not only the child's innocence but moreso taking advantage of the child's need of love and approval from a father like figure that was either absent in the child's life. The other 10% of the 80% was learned as well but is just to horrific to speak of to say the least. What I find very interesting in talking with a lot of my colleagues their ratios are very similiar to mine both Christian and Secular alike.

This is why I say it is both. I don't judge the homosexual whatsoever and I feel a great deal of compassion for them as I give them the hope and grace in Christ.

Bottom line: Homosexuality is an unconscious rejection of their own gender and why men are more feminine and females more 'butch'. A common thread in most not all but most is that the homosexual has or did have a very contentious or non-existent relationship with the same sex parent and had an overly emotional enmeshed relationship with the opposite sex parent.

Contrary to popular belief what I learned throughout the years from my homosexual patients are that they and the majority of homosexuals in general don't like being homosexuals and know something is wrong with their sexuality and it's not because of society or the church. What you see in the media is not an accurate representation of how your average homosexual feels about him or herself and the issues that go along with living the homosexual lifestyle.

These are the dirty little secrets you will never hear in the mainstream media FWIW.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:46 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
People are born with red hair, but hair color is not a protected class. People are born with unattractive features, but ugly isn't a protected class. I'm not sure I understand why you think being born in a particular way is the most important aspect for suspect class status. Religious freedom is a bedrock ideal upon which our country was founded.

Furthermore, I would argue that much like homosexuality, people who are true believers don't feel like they have a choice about their religion even if it isn't actually determined at birth.
What if being gay was your religion? Checkmate.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:58 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You gonna set up straw men for me to knock down? Awful nice of you!

If we are to have protected statuses at all (and that ship has sailed) than I think we need a logical and CONSISTENT basis for it.

It seems that the easiest way to do this is separate out what is a CHOICE and what is an inherent trait as your FIRST criteria. Then you need to look at historical bias based on that trait. If soulless gingers showed a history of oppression then I would argue that they qualify just as much as race or skin color does. Same for any other inherent trait. Gays certainly qualify on both counts.

Religion has an historic basis for being protected but that is IT. It has no logical foundation other than the LABEL of religion that separates it from neo-nazism or klan membership.

Explain to me (other than some weak "historical" nonsense) why if I walk into a dry cleaner wearing Klan regalia asking for them to clean my sheets they can refuse me service but if I walk in wearing a yarmulke they can not? (and for the sake of this argument let's pretend Judaism is only a religion and not also an ethnic group)

I'm by no means a supporter of the Klan but there are plenty of "religions" that can be damn near offensive in their CHOSEN views.
I'm not sure why you need more than a historical reason. I get that you think choice matters, but I don't think that makes any sense.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:10 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
The problem/disease - having to deal with gays against your will
The Cure - Legalizing discrimination against anyone if based on your claimed religious beliefs
No, you've misunderstood the problem. This law isn't specifically about dealing with gays although the same sex marriage revolution was a motivator, I'm sure. It could also apply to a non-gay issue like abortion. This amendment was about, for example, preventing a local jurisdiction from going beyond what the state of Arizona has decided is an acceptable infringement on religious liberty. It wouldn't change anything about what discrimination is allowed in Arizona, it would just prevent local jurisdictions from changing what is allowed.

"Claimed religious beliefs" aren't enough, btw, and it in no way allows people with legitimate religious beliefs to discriminate against "anyone".
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